Do you use reloads in your carry handgun ?

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by Hook686, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. LVLouisCyphre

    LVLouisCyphre
    Southern Nevada
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    Google the Harold Fish case. One of the things the prosecution used against him is that he used a 10mm. It also depends on the jurisdiction. If you're in a right to die, be a victim and pay taxes (i.e. CA, MA, NJ or NY) expect caliber and factory ammo to come into the merits of the case. You're in CA, I wouldn't bet the farm on your statement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  2. Adam1182

    Adam1182
    Prescott, AZ
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    Harold Fish was exonerated and laws were passed afterwards to prevent what had happened to him. There was a question of doubt when one of the wounds was a round pass through a hand as if there was a please, do not shoot question of doubt about it being self defense at all.


    Harold Fish - National Registry of Exonerations


    They used the 10mm as a stretch to try and prove that he was out to harm someone based on conjecture and scare monger tactics. Had I been on the stand, I could easily produce facts where for the great outdoors, that even states with harsh hunting regulations all can agree that 10mm is the humane cartridge for hunting and that handguns in general stink at stopping dead right there threats. I personally know sworn officers who will not go off the grid to camp, hunt, or enjoy mother nature in a side by side 4x4 without a G20 or something in .45 Super if they're a .45 guy, then when back on the grid going back to a G17, G19, G26, or a G43 for off duty.


    The 10mm's fantastic ability to penetrate even through lots of layers and bone is amazing. It's guaranteed to expand and even fragment adding more damage and increasing the all important task of hitting the CNS and ending things quickly. The DA spun his story and the defense wasn't prepared to deal with that scenario of a prosecutor going in that direction.


    As for the whole argument of using reloads versus factory, I have not seen one cited source even from the guys that the parrots parrot about, in regards to this. And knowing some of my friends that do forensics for a living in real life unlike the internet forensic cheetoh eating experts, there is no way to prove that anyone used a roll your own. Now maybe if the brass was once fired, maybe if the person behind the scope is on the know in what to look for. But from virgin stock, lol, nope. Loading an XTP from Hornady using Hornady brass and Winchester primers that Hornady buys by the trainload, no one even trained will be able to tell. Sorry boys, but that's the facts and your feelings cannot change things no matter how hard some will try.


    One last thing here. Get a gun guy for a lawyer and retain them. Someone who knows how to deal with both the laws of self defense, balistics and why a gun and caliber was used, and can defeat rogue anti gun crusaders looking at any angle for their agenda and can make the ATF blink more than once; I know a guy who had a judge throw three different "experts" from the ATF out after grilling them and asking why the ATF had people who were supposed to be experts that didn't even know their own laws as to what makes an SBR and then dismissed the case because it was starting to look like a kangaroo prosecution.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  3. nmwabbit

    nmwabbit
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    Adam1182’s cite, quote,

    In July 2009, the Arizona Court of Appeals reversed Fish’s conviction because the trial judge failed to give necessary jury instructions, and because the judge improperly excluded evidence of Kuenzli’s past acts of violence which Fish attempted to present to support his claim that Kuenzli was the aggressor.

    The appellate court noted that the evidence about Kuenzli’s background was “highly sanitized,” and that if permitted, numerous witnesses would have described Kuenzli as “irrationally aggressive and violent and extremely frightening.” Unquote.

    This is the rationale for the exoneration, judical improprieties.

    How much $$$$, time, stress, etc., are you willing to expend, Fish spent 5+ years dealling with his SD incident before other jurists decided the initial judicial idiots [sheriff, prosecution, and judge] were out to prove their cause célèbre, which promoted statutory change. That the county prosecutor continued to agressively pursue Fish after the appeal ruling shows me, from the beginning theywere out to make a point to hang Fish, period.

    Again fron Adam1182’s cite, quote:

    On December 1, 2009, the Arizona Supreme Court rejected the prosecution’s request to review the case. Unquote
     
  4. LVLouisCyphre

    LVLouisCyphre
    Southern Nevada
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    Google Ayoob on reloads. Mas Ayoob was an expert witness in defending someone who's mentally ill spouse killed herself with a .38 special reloads in NJ. The prosecution was arguing it was a domestic homicide because of the loads being lighter than factory and the forensics not matching what would they would be for standard pressure .38 special or +P. It has indeed happened. I touch on this case in my CCW classes on ammunition selection and not use reloads for defense/protection.

    But hey, if you want to shell out an additional five figures to hire Ayoob to defend you and have a greater probability of being in your cell block's drama club in their rendition of Deliverance playing the part of Bobby, who am I to argue?
     
  5. Adam1182

    Adam1182
    Prescott, AZ
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    If you want to discuss, then discuss. But do not waste my time on trying to use scare monger tactics as it's intellectually dishonest. You do you based on non cited hearsay and BS, while I do me who's actually been in a shooting for self defense, it was ruled SD and justified, and not one care was asked about the ammunition used when it went to the grand jury. Even got the gun back too. That's two myths killed in one stone.


    Whomever you are, I will make sure not to recommend you for any classes because of the ridiculous of your method of approach. You are bad and you need to be shamed by an actual person who lived to tell about it, and is telling you that you're full of it.


    One more for the ignore, you will not be allowed to fill my time with garbage ever again.
     
  6. LVLouisCyphre

    LVLouisCyphre
    Southern Nevada
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    I'm just as controversial and a curmudgeon as Ayoob and don't sugar coat anything. If you make a mistake out there, it's not like a parking or traffic ticket. I also prescreen everyone and make them soul search and ask the question, "Can you deal with possibly taking a life to defend yourself or someone else?" If not, you have no business having a CCW. When you put that reality in front of them, you'd be surprised how many people decide it's not for them. Some people only get their Nevada CFP just for the NICS exemption which is fine, if you complete more than four 4473s during a five year period, it's worth having for acquisition purposes as our NICS fee is $25 per transaction.

    If you were well versed, you would have known about the Ayoob case. I conduct my classes with this mantra.

    "I'm not here to be your friend; if you want a friend go down to the animal shelter and get yourself a dog."
     
  7. nmwabbit

    nmwabbit
    abq
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    Adam1182, this discussion is like which caliber or which handgun is better in SD situations - absolutely has no lose/win position!

    Yes you are probably correct, SHOULD NOT matter, but as articulated in the 16 year olde high road thread, [ Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial? ] or your cite on Fish, [as well as other tales from the naked city] all show individual(s) and their families expend extensive $$$$, stress, hardship defending themselves from SD shootings and shows [not not scare shock & awe rhetorical] prosecutors will attempt to use every tactic/trick at their disposal [rightly/wrongly], to include which ammo was used, to get another notch on their belt as the move up their career ladder to sitting on the bench or other political position.

    Therefore, if a citizen can take this one point out of the prosecutor’s bag of tactic/tricks, why shouldn’t those who carry for SD purposes avail themselves to removing the possibility the reload ammunition played a part in the SD situation the citizen is being tried for out of the equation?
     
  8. Adam1182

    Adam1182
    Prescott, AZ
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    You do you. However, I disprove of going out and spreading disinformation and will stand up to incorrect scare tactics. We're a community constantly under attack, it's about high time we stop trying to rabble rouse with the same 2A community. If some random wants to use reloads, live and let live and worry about you, yourself, and only just YOU instead of trying to tell others what to do. It all needs to stop. If some person won't do what you tell them to do, oh well. You're not their supervisor. If someone says that they're using this caliber or that reload, keep on moving and hit the X or save your tongue because that is the adult thing to do instead of being an argumentative bubblegum.


    Stop fighting us. Stop fighting US! None of this will effect YOU anyways. Use factory, I could not care less what you do in your life as it has no effect on mine and I am not not have I ever been, your supervisor. I use both. I'm living testament that the narrative is false. The end.
     
  9. nmwabbit

    nmwabbit
    abq
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    So adam what misinformation, aka unsubstantiated data has been used?

    Truth be told, it was you yourself who presented and used the Fish example which was overturned on judicial misconduct not in fact the argument you espoused regarding the 10 mm.

    You seem quite expressive that your way is the only way, why is that?

    Isn’t the point of discussion to express differences, yet you just summarily malign anyone with a counter point without challenging their discussion point(s), why?

    Just because you personally have not been ‘improperly’ exposed to prosecutorial misconduct does not mean it hasn’t transpired to others in our society nor are their reports scare rhetoric but rather reality for those like Fish, etc., and their families was mentally, emotionally, as well as financially traumatic to all concerned!

    So this august member truly hopes you [nor anybody] ever do not personally experience any type of judical experience in your [or their] life time, but for you to state on a public forum unequivocally cannot occur is an injustice to everyone.

    Just saying...
     
  10. Adam1182

    Adam1182
    Prescott, AZ
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    You're being argumentative just to be argumentative. Foxtrot Oscar. Another for the ignore. Stop trying to bring me into this fight, your BS is not going to EVER change the actual reality of it.
     
  11. LVLouisCyphre

    LVLouisCyphre
    Southern Nevada
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    I haven't even gone back to law school and I could crucify Adam1182 in court in an antigun jurisdiction such as CA, MD, IL, NJ or NY. What makes me more dangerous in this instance is that I am a gun person, instructor and reload myself. A prosecutorial or plaintiff legal team that an expert who is also an attorney is very dangerous. There are all sorts of legal arguments that can be used against someone who uses reloads for defensive purposes. Don't give the prosecution or plaintiff's counsel any more ammunition against you by the use of reloads; pun intended.

    What firearm(s) and ammo you use can and has been used against someone in the Harold Fish case and the NJ case where Mas Ayoob was an expert witness for the defense.

    It is true that it's not likely that you will get prosecuted in progun jurisdictions such as AZ, FL, NV, OR or UT. You probably won't even have your firearm(s) taken as evidence if it's a justifiable homicide. Progun jurisdictions have a "reasonable person" standard that is in the favor of someone who acts in the interest of defense with firearm(s).

    In antigun jurisdictions, we don't consider them "reasonable people" just by virtue of their Draconian firearm laws. All the prosecution has to do is eliminate reasonable doubt and next thing you know, you're being escorted to a holding cell by the bailiffs for murder or if you're lucky, manslaughter and someone is telling you in the adjacent holding cell, "You have a mighty purdy mouth."

    There's also the issue that you can be sued by the subject or their estate you shot in civil court but acquitted of murder or manslaughter and have an expensive judgment against you just by virtue of the fact you used reloads. Again, not likely in progun jurisdiction with a castle doctrine or stand your ground, but very likely in the right to die and be taxed States.
     
  12. nmwabbit

    nmwabbit
    abq
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    Alas, Adam1182, argumentative as well as BS is in the eye of the beholder, wouldn’t you say?

    Never ever said you should change a thing, now did i?
     

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