Do you use reloads in your carry handgun ?

[Phxcop]

An average civil attorney will charge $450+ per hour. As for recovering fees if you prevail, good luck with that. The "victim" will hire an attorney that will take the case on commission, costing them nothing. He will immediately start filing motions, requiring your attorney to research/respond. There will be multiple depositions, all requiring your attorney to prepare for and attend. Experts will most likely need to be hired and deposed. If you actually go to trial, your investment will already be $250k +. A typical civil trial will last 5 days, each having 10+ "billable hours", costing another $100k. At the end of the day, should you prevail, you may be awarded attorney fees. You will then be faced with pursuing someone with little or no money to begin with.

 

[texasgrillchef]

While I agree with the first part of your comment, I'm not sure "it will cost you everything to defend".

In today's litigious society anyone can sue someone for almost anything and find a lawyer to take the case.
If your TV wasn't so big, poor XXXX would have been able to carry it over your fence, not fallen and died. He would have turned into a brain surgeon making millions, so we're suing you for his future earnings.

I can't speak for other states but in Illinois and Arizona, a good attorney will not only will the case but likely be able to recover attorney's fees. A great attorney would follow up with a complaint to the state Bar, against the attorney for bringing the suit in the first place. The real rick is to know a good attorney before you have to hit Google to find one.

Again why having us lawshield or uscca memberships who will cover all your legal expenses should anything like that happen.

 

[ynotAZ]

My personal experience has been far different, apparently, than Phxcop. I agree on the fee, and a good attorney is even higher, but expert witnesses are rarely needed and an attorney taking a civil case on a contingency, not commission, rarely will take money out of his or his firms pocket to bring in an expert so there is nothing to counter in court.

As far as collecting, that is problematic, but after 2 years of a civil litigation my attorney found a method to collect from people who said they have nothing.

Like I said anybody can sue anyone, just a fact of our current society. I would worry more about criminal charges and there is a right way and a wrong way to handle circumstances after a shooting. The wrong way can get you put away, the right way, assuming it was defensive, will lessen your chances of being charged and certainly eliminate conviction, if charged.

 

[texasgrillchef]

One other thought I would like to say, is if anyone is involved criminally or civilly in a lawsuit. I seriously highly doubt that the use of reloads will ever be the SOLE thing that caused you to be criminally charged or have a civil lawsuit against you. I also highly doubt that using reloads will be the sole and only factor in if your found guilty or not, as well as lose your civil case. If the shooting was not legally justified, your in trouble and using reloads won't have mattered. Where I believe it would matter is in the sentencing phase, or in how much damages are awarded.

The issues of using a reload for Self defense is simply reliability, and if your loads fail catastrophically causing injury to bystanders.

 

[Phxcop]

Criminal charges are a always a primary concern. I advise people involved in a self-defense shooting to:
1. Immediately call 911, notify that you were attacked and had to use your firearm for self defense, request fire/police.
2. When police arrive, identify yourself as the victim.
3. Point out any evidence (knife,shell casings, etc.) Identify any witnesses.
4. Respectfully invoke your right to remain silent.
5. Contact your attorney prior to giving any statements.

 

[MadDuner]

I would be way more worried about my reloads failing and causing myself to be defenseless, than injuring bystanders. Previous encounters involving deployment of firearms never occurred in areas with innocent bystanders.

 

[dangerranger]

Its hard to believe we are still arguing about this! Whether or not you are sued after a defensive shooting will have nothing to do with the ammo used. Reloads are not illegal to use in any of the 50 states. Police departments do have reason to limit their officers to issued ammo. But it has more to do with limiting liability through training standards. And being able to spread that liability to another company in case of an ammo failure. [ an officers widow sues because a round failed to fire or stop a BG before he killed her husband]
There has yet to be any prosecution in any state because the shooter used reloaded ammo. This is just FUDD that gets repeated over and over again!

And can anyone show me a commercial ammo manufacture that hand inspects each round at each step ? My own reloads are!
In 50 years I have loaded exactly one dud round! How many ammo company's can claim that !
At the end of the day the only question is Did the shooter act in accordance with the law? No where in that question is What ammo did he use.[ because the law doesn't care! The law doesn't care if you defended yourself with a shovel or a shotgun.
So if anyone knows of any court case that hinged on what ammo was used in Self Defense This is your chance to post it up! Otherwise you are just repeating FUDD! DR

 

[Huggy]

Its hard to believe we are still arguing about this! Whether or not you are sued after a defensive shooting will have nothing to do with the ammo used. Reloads are not illegal to use in any of the 50 states. Police departments do have reason to limit their officers to issued ammo. But it has more to do with limiting liability through training standards. And being able to spread that liability to another company in case of an ammo failure. [ an officers widow sues because a round failed to fire or stop a BG before he killed her husband]
There has yet to be any prosecution in any state because the shooter used reloaded ammo. This is just FUDD that gets repeated over and over again!

And can anyone show me a commercial ammo manufacture that hand inspects each round at each step ? My own reloads are!
In 50 years I have loaded exactly one dud round! How many ammo company's can claim that !
At the end of the day the only question is Did the shooter act in accordance with the law? No where in that question is What ammo did he use.[ because the law doesn't care! The law doesn't care if you defended yourself with a shovel or a shotgun.
So if anyone knows of any court case that hinged on what ammo was used in Self Defense This is your chance to post it up! Otherwise you are just repeating FUDD! DR

ALL valid points however I would also like to make this one correlation.
All states require driver and passenger seatbelts.
Some folks STILL refuse to use them claiming the airbags will mitigate any problems in an accident.
My point is, do you want to trust you'll never be in an accident since statistically the probability is quite low or do you just wear them? The choice is up to you.
As you claim, but I'm not wasting my time to do the research...call me lazy...I'm not skeered...do YOU want to be the Poster Child and prosecuted after the fact in criminal OR civil court for using reloads when access to factory ammo is available?
Roll the dice if you want. As for me I will carry factory ammo to remove that final
Nth of a possibility the lack of use would make ME the test case.
YMMV and only YOU will suffer SHOULD the unthinkable happen.
Lastly, I also wear seatbelts when I'm driving. As a former LEO I've seen the results of people who didn't wear belts in a bad accident as well as those who did.
I also have seen the grief of parents who had kids they failed to buckle in and were ejected and died.
I've also seen tens of thousands of cars that pass by without incident. You just never know when a bad situation will visit you.
But, again, only one person can make the decision to buy and carry factory ammo or not and only that person runs the risk of a prosecution as a byproduct of a court case.
So, silly or not, WTH would you INTENTIONALLY want to roll the dice and tempt fate?
And, yeah, WTH is this even still a topic of discussion?
It doesn't seem anyone will change their mind on their course of action as a result.
So do or don't.
Only YOU can prevent forest fires. LMAO

 

[Borderwarrior]

Huggy has a point. To each his own. Weigh the ramifications and decide. Would that our illustrious governors allowed the voting public to decide for themselves how to treat this pandemic. We used to have the right to decide for ourselves.

 

[texasgrillchef]

ALL valid points however I would also like to make this one correlation.
All states require driver and passenger seatbelts.
Some folks STILL refuse to use them claiming the airbags will mitigate any problems in an accident.
My point is, do you want to trust you'll never be in an accident since statistically the probability is quite low or do you just wear them? The choice is up to you.
As you claim, but I'm not wasting my time to do the research...call me lazy...I'm not skeered...do YOU want to be the Poster Child and prosecuted after the fact in criminal OR civil court for using reloads when access to factory ammo is available?
Roll the dice if you want. As for me I will carry factory ammo to remove that final
Nth of a possibility the lack of use would make ME the test case.
YMMV and only YOU will suffer SHOULD the unthinkable happen.
Lastly, I also wear seatbelts when I'm driving. As a former LEO I've seen the results of people who didn't wear belts in a bad accident as well as those who did.
I also have seen the grief of parents who had kids they failed to buckle in and were ejected and died.
I've also seen tens of thousands of cars that pass by without incident. You just never know when a bad situation will visit you.
But, again, only one person can make the decision to buy and carry factory ammo or not and only that person runs the risk of a prosecution as a byproduct of a court case.
So, silly or not, WTH would you INTENTIONALLY want to roll the dice and tempt fate?
And, yeah, WTH is this even still a topic of discussion?
It doesn't seem anyone will change their mind on their course of action as a result.
So do or don't.
Only YOU can prevent forest fires. LMAO

You as well make a valid point, with seatbelts. Then you have helmets for motorcycles. Most if not all require of them of anyone under 18 who is either the rider or driver of a motorcycle. Some states require them of everyone. Some states such as Texas don't require them for anyone over 21. (Maybe even 18, can't remember). I still wear my helmet always. Yet I don't want it to be required by law either. However, with that also being said. If I am NOT wearing an helmet, and I'm involved in an accident that is not my fault. I also can't hold the person responsible for certain additional head injuries as a result of me choosing not to wear a helmet. So not wearing a helmet reduces the other parties liability and increases mine. I choose to wear a helmet, but I do oppose mandatory helmet laws.

So like I said in a previous post. If reloads were to ever play a part in a criminal case, it wouldn't be in the decision of guilt or innocence, but it might play a part in the sentencing phase. In a civil trial, it would not be a factor in determining liability, however it would probably play a part in how much you pay in damages if you are found liable.

Even if your in a state that has laws that protect you from civil liability for a justified shooting, even if you have a membership in a legal assistance program. It's a decision that each and every person has to decide for themselves and their families.

This thread though provides a lot of valid points and information to help those who haven't made that decision to give them guidance in making an intelligent and informed decision.

IMHO though, if your someone who isn't already a lawyer or a Leo, or retired Leo I seriously recommend someone getting a membership in a legal assistance program. There aremany to choose from, especially if your someone who carries on a regular and frequent basis.

 

[Phxcop]

"So if anyone knows of any court case that hinged on what ammo was used in Self Defense This is your chance to post it up!" dangerranger

Massad Ayoob wrote a column regarding this very topic. It can be found here:

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court | Defensive Carry

Love him or hate him, Ayoob has the "been there, done that" badge of many civil/criminal cases. He cites several cases to support his position.

To be clear, none of the cases "hinged" on the use of reloads. I've said before, the perceived benefits of reloads, for self defense, are far outweighed by the risks. There is no down side to using a proven, factory self-defense ammo.

 

[dangerranger]

"So if anyone knows of any court case that hinged on what ammo was used in Self Defense This is your chance to post it up!" dangerranger

Massad Ayoob wrote a column regarding this very topic. It can be found here:

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court | Defensive Carry

Love him or hate him, Ayoob has the "been there, done that" badge of many civil/criminal cases. He cites several cases to support his position.

To be clear, none of the cases "hinged" on the use of reloads. I've said before, the perceived benefits of reloads, for self defense, are far outweighed by the risks. There is no down side to using a proven, factory self-defense ammo.

Exactly my point, these cases were not about the use of reloads in a SD case. But people keep quoting them as if they were!

 

[dangerranger]

ALL valid points however I would also like to make this one correlation.
All states require driver and passenger seatbelts.
Some folks STILL refuse to use them claiming the airbags will mitigate any problems in an accident.
My point is, do you want to trust you'll never be in an accident since statistically the probability is quite low or do you just wear them? The choice is up to you.
As you claim, but I'm not wasting my time to do the research...call me lazy...I'm not skeered...do YOU want to be the Poster Child and prosecuted after the fact in criminal OR civil court for using reloads when access to factory ammo is available?
Roll the dice if you want. As for me I will carry factory ammo to remove that final
Nth of a possibility the lack of use would make ME the test case.
YMMV and only YOU will suffer SHOULD the unthinkable happen.
Lastly, I also wear seatbelts when I'm driving. As a former LEO I've seen the results of people who didn't wear belts in a bad accident as well as those who did.
I also have seen the grief of parents who had kids they failed to buckle in and were ejected and died.
I've also seen tens of thousands of cars that pass by without incident. You just never know when a bad situation will visit you.
But, again, only one person can make the decision to buy and carry factory ammo or not and only that person runs the risk of a prosecution as a byproduct of a court case.
So, silly or not, WTH would you INTENTIONALLY want to roll the dice and tempt fate?
And, yeah, WTH is this even still a topic of discussion?
It doesn't seem anyone will change their mind on their course of action as a result.
So do or don't.
Only YOU can prevent forest fires. LMAO

If we use seatbelts as the example. In a state that has no requirement to wear them, Would you be prosicuted for not wearing them? The answer is no because you have not broken any law! DR

 

[DunRanull]

I have reloaded for twenty or more years, and tend to load mostly practice ammo. I think the plan for any ammo is optimal accuracy. After all, placement is prime and bullet construction secondary. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a good copper jacket hollow point, but their too expensive to make a habit of. I have carried reloaded solid lead semi wadcutters in my personal defense .45 while out and about. Should the need arise, I am VERY CONFIDENT, that the 200 grain flat point will discombobulate what ever it strikes. And like others, I would take an attorney to task to try and claim it is designed to kill. Wondering what bullet isn't?

200 grain solid lead semi-wads will get the job done in .45 cal.... I carried them and 230 gr flat points for quite awhile in my .45 C.Commander when I was first reloading for it... (wish I had never traded it off!)

 

[DunRanull]

I carry a .357 magnum light weight J-Frame. It is no fun to shoot .357 magnum rounds in. .38 Special are fun to shoot, but 755 fps with a 158 grain bullet strikes me as at the low end of warm and fuzzy. I reload 158 grain Gold Dot hollow Points at about 900 fps and though these 'rock my boat' I find them manageable. I have heard people say do not carry with reloaded ammo. What are your thoughts on this ?

Hook686: "I carry a .357 magnum light weight J-Frame." Yikes! My .38spec J-Frame bites with warm loads... That .357 must leave scar tissue! I almost bought one once- but the store owner talked me out of it.. Interesting post.

 

[DunRanull]

ALL valid points however I would also like to make this one correlation.
All states require driver and passenger seatbelts.
Some folks STILL refuse to use them claiming the airbags will mitigate any problems in an accident.
My point is, do you want to trust you'll never be in an accident since statistically the probability is quite low or do you just wear them? The choice is up to you.
As you claim, but I'm not wasting my time to do the research...call me lazy...I'm not skeered...do YOU want to be the Poster Child and prosecuted after the fact in criminal OR civil court for using reloads when access to factory ammo is available?
Roll the dice if you want. As for me I will carry factory ammo to remove that final
Nth of a possibility the lack of use would make ME the test case.
YMMV and only YOU will suffer SHOULD the unthinkable happen.
I carry a .357 magnum light weight J-Frame.
I've also seen tens of thousands of cars that pass by without incident. You just never know when a bad situation will visit you.
But, again, only one person can make the decision to buy and carry factory ammo or not and only that person runs the risk of a prosecution as a byproduct of a court case.
So, silly or not, WTH would you INTENTIONALLY want to roll the dice and tempt fate?
And, yeah, WTH is this even still a topic of discussion?
It doesn't seem anyone will change their mind on their course of action as a result.
So do or don't.
Only YOU can prevent forest fires. LMAO

I didnt mean for this to get posted and now I can't delete it.

 

[curtmini14]

Dam right i carry my reloads i know they work.i use 205gn rnfp black lead in my 45 it gets the job done 5gns of bullseye backs that up.

 

[dangerranger]

In 6 pages we have had input from a judge, lawyer, cops, etc... and still no one has pointed to any law against using reloaded ammo! Not even local laws! This is just a myth that keeps on giving! DR

 

[Phxcop]

In 6 pages we have had input from a judge, lawyer, cops, etc... and still no one has pointed to any law against using reloaded ammo! Not even local laws! This is just a myth that keeps on giving! DR

People post here looking for advice. Respondent's give advice based on their life experiences. At the end of the day you are responsible for your own actions. Seek advice, do your research, and do what you think is best. Your're beating a dead horse D.

 

[Belevolk]

The way I figure it, dead by a firearm is dead. No matter what went down the pipe, no matter the times the trigger was pulled. That life and yours is changed forever. It is one hell of a responsibility that I take very seriously. We the people on this forum seem to be in a minority on this point.
I do use reloads jacketed hollow points, and from a .45 will do the deed I need them to do. My father a man of the law always taught us children. Be sure there is only one story to tell.