Do you use reloads in your carry handgun ?

[Adam1182]

Harold Fish was exonerated and laws were passed afterwards to prevent what had happened to him. There was a question of doubt when one of the wounds was a round pass through a hand as if there was a please, do not shoot question of doubt about it being self defense at all.


Harold Fish - National Registry of Exonerations


They used the 10mm as a stretch to try and prove that he was out to harm someone based on conjecture and scare monger tactics. Had I been on the stand, I could easily produce facts where for the great outdoors, that even states with harsh hunting regulations all can agree that 10mm is the humane cartridge for hunting and that handguns in general stink at stopping dead right there threats. I personally know sworn officers who will not go off the grid to camp, hunt, or enjoy mother nature in a side by side 4x4 without a G20 or something in .45 Super if they're a .45 guy, then when back on the grid going back to a G17, G19, G26, or a G43 for off duty.


The 10mm's fantastic ability to penetrate even through lots of layers and bone is amazing. It's guaranteed to expand and even fragment adding more damage and increasing the all important task of hitting the CNS and ending things quickly. The DA spun his story and the defense wasn't prepared to deal with that scenario of a prosecutor going in that direction.


As for the whole argument of using reloads versus factory, I have not seen one cited source even from the guys that the parrots parrot about, in regards to this. And knowing some of my friends that do forensics for a living in real life unlike the internet forensic cheetoh eating experts, there is no way to prove that anyone used a roll your own. Now maybe if the brass was once fired, maybe if the person behind the scope is on the know in what to look for. But from virgin stock, lol, nope. Loading an XTP from Hornady using Hornady brass and Winchester primers that Hornady buys by the trainload, no one even trained will be able to tell. Sorry boys, but that's the facts and your feelings cannot change things no matter how hard some will try.


One last thing here. Get a gun guy for a lawyer and retain them. Someone who knows how to deal with both the laws of self defense, balistics and why a gun and caliber was used, and can defeat rogue anti gun crusaders looking at any angle for their agenda and can make the ATF blink more than once; I know a guy who had a judge throw three different "experts" from the ATF out after grilling them and asking why the ATF had people who were supposed to be experts that didn't even know their own laws as to what makes an SBR and then dismissed the case because it was starting to look like a kangaroo prosecution.

 

[nmwabbit]

Adam1182's cite, quote,

In July 2009, the Arizona Court of Appeals reversed Fish's conviction because the trial judge failed to give necessary jury instructions, and because the judge improperly excluded evidence of Kuenzli's past acts of violence which Fish attempted to present to support his claim that Kuenzli was the aggressor.

The appellate court noted that the evidence about Kuenzli's background was "highly sanitized," and that if permitted, numerous witnesses would have described Kuenzli as "irrationally aggressive and violent and extremely frightening." Unquote.

This is the rationale for the exoneration, judical improprieties.

How much $$$$, time, stress, etc., are you willing to expend, Fish spent 5+ years dealling with his SD incident before other jurists decided the initial judicial idiots [sheriff, prosecution, and judge] were out to prove their cause célèbre, which promoted statutory change. That the county prosecutor continued to agressively pursue Fish after the appeal ruling shows me, from the beginning theywere out to make a point to hang Fish, period.

Again fron Adam1182's cite, quote:

On December 1, 2009, the Arizona Supreme Court rejected the prosecution's request to review the case. Unquote

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

As for the whole argument of using reloads versus factory, I have not seen one cited source even from the guys that the parrots parrot about, in regards to this. And knowing some of my friends that do forensics for a living in real life unlike the internet forensic cheetoh eating experts, there is no way to prove that anyone used a roll your own. Now maybe if the brass was once fired, maybe if the person behind the scope is on the know in what to look for. But from virgin stock, lol, nope. Loading an XTP from Hornady using Hornady brass and Winchester primers that Hornady buys by the trainload, no one even trained will be able to tell. Sorry boys, but that's the facts and your feelings cannot change things no matter how hard some will try.

Google Ayoob on reloads. Mas Ayoob was an expert witness in defending someone who's mentally ill spouse killed herself with a .38 special reloads in NJ. The prosecution was arguing it was a domestic homicide because of the loads being lighter than factory and the forensics not matching what would they would be for standard pressure .38 special or +P. It has indeed happened. I touch on this case in my CCW classes on ammunition selection and not use reloads for defense/protection.

But hey, if you want to shell out an additional five figures to hire Ayoob to defend you and have a greater probability of being in your cell block's drama club in their rendition of Deliverance playing the part of Bobby, who am I to argue?

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

If you want to discuss, then discuss. But do not waste my time on trying to use scare monger tactics as it's intellectually dishonest. You do you based on non cited hearsay and BS, while I do me who's actually been in a shooting for self defense, it was ruled SD and justified, and not one care was asked about the ammunition used when it went to the grand jury. Even got the gun back too. That's two myths killed in one stone.

Whomever you are, I will make sure not to recommend you for any classes because of the ridiculous of your method of approach. You are bad and you need to be shamed by an actual person who lived to tell about it, and is telling you that you're full of it.

One more for the ignore, you will not be allowed to fill my time with garbage ever again.

I'm just as controversial and a curmudgeon as Ayoob and don't sugar coat anything. If you make a mistake out there, it's not like a parking or traffic ticket. I also prescreen everyone and make them soul search and ask the question, "Can you deal with possibly taking a life to defend yourself or someone else?" If not, you have no business having a CCW. When you put that reality in front of them, you'd be surprised how many people decide it's not for them. Some people only get their Nevada CFP just for the NICS exemption which is fine, if you complete more than four 4473s during a five year period, it's worth having for acquisition purposes as our NICS fee is $25 per transaction.

If you were well versed, you would have known about the Ayoob case. I conduct my classes with this mantra.

"I'm not here to be your friend; if you want a friend go down to the animal shelter and get yourself a dog."

 

[nmwabbit]

Adam1182, this discussion is like which caliber or which handgun is better in SD situations - absolutely has no lose/win position!

Yes you are probably correct, SHOULD NOT matter, but as articulated in the 16 year olde high road thread, [ Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial? ] or your cite on Fish, [as well as other tales from the naked city] all show individual(s) and their families expend extensive $$$$, stress, hardship defending themselves from SD shootings and shows [not not scare shock & awe rhetorical] prosecutors will attempt to use every tactic/trick at their disposal [rightly/wrongly], to include which ammo was used, to get another notch on their belt as the move up their career ladder to sitting on the bench or other political position.

Therefore, if a citizen can take this one point out of the prosecutor's bag of tactic/tricks, why shouldn't those who carry for SD purposes avail themselves to removing the possibility the reload ammunition played a part in the SD situation the citizen is being tried for out of the equation?

 

[Adam1182]

You do you. However, I disprove of going out and spreading disinformation and will stand up to incorrect scare tactics. We're a community constantly under attack, it's about high time we stop trying to rabble rouse with the same 2A community. If some random wants to use reloads, live and let live and worry about you, yourself, and only just YOU instead of trying to tell others what to do. It all needs to stop. If some person won't do what you tell them to do, oh well. You're not their supervisor. If someone says that they're using this caliber or that reload, keep on moving and hit the X or save your tongue because that is the adult thing to do instead of being an argumentative bubblegum.


Stop fighting us. Stop fighting US! None of this will effect YOU anyways. Use factory, I could not care less what you do in your life as it has no effect on mine and I am not not have I ever been, your supervisor. I use both. I'm living testament that the narrative is false. The end.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

I haven't even gone back to law school and I could crucify Adam1182 in court in an antigun jurisdiction such as CA, MD, IL, NJ or NY. What makes me more dangerous in this instance is that I am a gun person, instructor and reload myself. A prosecutorial or plaintiff legal team that an expert who is also an attorney is very dangerous. There are all sorts of legal arguments that can be used against someone who uses reloads for defensive purposes. Don't give the prosecution or plaintiff's counsel any more ammunition against you by the use of reloads; pun intended.

What firearm(s) and ammo you use can and has been used against someone in the Harold Fish case and the NJ case where Mas Ayoob was an expert witness for the defense.

It is true that it's not likely that you will get prosecuted in progun jurisdictions such as AZ, FL, NV, OR or UT. You probably won't even have your firearm(s) taken as evidence if it's a justifiable homicide. Progun jurisdictions have a "reasonable person" standard that is in the favor of someone who acts in the interest of defense with firearm(s).

In antigun jurisdictions, we don't consider them "reasonable people" just by virtue of their Draconian firearm laws. All the prosecution has to do is eliminate reasonable doubt and next thing you know, you're being escorted to a holding cell by the bailiffs for murder or if you're lucky, manslaughter and someone is telling you in the adjacent holding cell, "You have a mighty purdy mouth."

There's also the issue that you can be sued by the subject or their estate you shot in civil court but acquitted of murder or manslaughter and have an expensive judgment against you just by virtue of the fact you used reloads. Again, not likely in progun jurisdiction with a castle doctrine or stand your ground, but very likely in the right to die and be taxed States.

 

[nmwabbit]

You're being argumentative just to be argumentative. Foxtrot Oscar. Another for the ignore. Stop trying to bring me into this fight, your BS is not going to EVER change the actual reality of it.

Alas, Adam1182, argumentative as well as BS is in the eye of the beholder, wouldn't you say?

Never ever said you should change a thing, now did i?

 

[mstoffoguns]

I don't carry reloads, don't shoot reloads unless I made them myself. Even with my own reloads, I would not carry them for defensive use.

 

[nvshooter]

I do not carry concealed. If I did, I'd use my reloads. I always load reloaded handgun ammo to the middle of the powder-charge range. Under oath I'd have to answer that my reloads are certainly "less deadly" than factory-loaded ammo, which is always loaded to maximum values. Consumers just want that kind of crap; they like to say their .357 Magnum bullets escape the muzzle at 3570 fps. Mine, at mid-charge, are probably not exceeding 1000 fps-- which would still hurt quite a bit if one came into contact with your cranium directly above your eyes. The bullet that killed Lincoln was moving at 236 fps. My 1000 fps .357s are just fine...

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

I do not carry concealed. If I did, I'd use my reloads. I always load reloaded handgun ammo to the middle of the powder-charge range. Under oath I'd have to answer that my reloads are certainly "less deadly" than factory-loaded ammo, which is always loaded to maximum values.

You may still likely require an expert witness at the cost of four or five figures to collaborate that. Unless you have an FFL as an ammo manufacturer, your word isn't going to be worth Buffalo feces on a five cent piece (refer to Argo (2012); the script option scene meeting) in court; with all due respect.

Are you likely to get charged if it's a clean shooting in pro-2A jurisdiction? No. However, it makes it more of a clean event if you use factory ammo from a tier 1 ammunition manufacturer as you're using something CSI and homicide investigators are expecting to find in their investigation.

You need to be able to justify all of your actions to a homicide detective, a DA and possibly a judge and jury including your firearm choice, caliber and ammo. Using factory ammo removes a level of justification in your (self) defense case that may require an expert witness. Using a caliber that your local LE agency uses, removes an additional level of justification. I can defend myself using .44 special and .45 Colt as the ballistics are similar to approved LVMPD calibers. However, do I want to pay my defense team for the jury getting a ballistics lesson? No. I've increased my legal defense bill by four or five figures if I'm dealing with vigilante prosecution. A sheriff, DA or judge seeking reelection is more likely to toss someone under the bus for a clean defense incident to further their political career.

 

[Huggy]

I carry a .357 magnum light weight J-Frame. It is no fun to shoot .357 magnum rounds in. .38 Special are fun to shoot, but 755 fps with a 158 grain bullet strikes me as at the low end of warm and fuzzy. I reload 158 grain Gold Dot hollow Points at about 900 fps and though these 'rock my boat' I find them manageable. I have heard people say do not carry with reloaded ammo. What are your thoughts on this ?

As a former LEO, I have been a voracious reader of all things related to SD, HD, and whether or not to carry my reloaded ammo in my CCW, I will defer to others who make a living helping to defend folks who have been involved in SD shootings. Folks like Massad Ayoob and the like, in addition my old department as well as the County Attorney on the subject.
To a person, NONE advise that "Handloaded" or "Reloaded" ammo be used in any carry gun, whether CCW or otherwise, but as your primary source of SD ammo.
The reason (s) have already been mentioned in other posts herein and I echo them.
WTH would you give ANY Prosecution team ANY ammo (no pun intended) with which to convict you of a crime?!?
It just ain't smart.
Now if you are on your way home from a range session or hunting and you have other than FACTORY SD ammo in your blaster, I don't honestly believe you can be taken issue with for that assuming everything else is justified and righteous.
Take it for what it is worth but WHY tempt fate??
YMMV and, hopefully, we won't read about you in some newspaper discussion about how you used REALLY EEEVIL ammo to not only KILL a nice Choirboy but the ammo YOU concocted was INTENDED to destroy his very SOUL, and for that you should be found GUILTY and CRUCIFIED!!
Overnout

 

[Huggy]

I have reloaded for twenty or more years, and tend to load mostly practice ammo. I think the plan for any ammo is optimal accuracy. After all, placement is prime and bullet construction secondary. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a good copper jacket hollow point, but their too expensive to make a habit of. I have carried reloaded solid lead semi wadcutters in my personal defense .45 while out and about. Should the need arise, I am VERY CONFIDENT, that the 200 grain flat point will discombobulate what ever it strikes. And like others, I would take an attorney to task to try and claim it is designed to kill. Wondering what bullet isn't?

Like most, I doubt anyone would fault your comment but WHY would you tempt fate?
If you can afford a quality gun, can't you afford at least one cylinder/magazine and spare reload of whichever, of FACTORY SD ammo?
It isn't about being "cheap," either, but to not take the advice of the professionals who make their living defending people against unfounded charges seems just a might Hard Headed or wanting to "In Your Face" should the SHTF and you have to shoot then face the music. But, HEY! YMMV and it is your hide, after all.
Good luck with that

 

[badbob85037]

A friend of mine killed one of two men that broke into his home one night with a .357. The one he shot ran and fell in his shower dead. The paramedics gave him high fives telling him the guy's aorta was hanging from the wall and his wallet was in the dead mans back pocket. Police saw him at a bar a few nights latter and bought him drinks. The dead man's mother told police that is where the dead man bought his drugs. The police came and question my friend in the middle of a poker game we were playing. My friend is from New Orleans. He told them. I hate ni##ers and I sure wouldn't have one in my house. That is the last time they questioned my friend.

Chances are a prosecutor isn't going to know squat about reloads. On the other hand it would be easy enough to prove the hand load used was not some ball and chain behind rocket fuel coming at light speed. You could even make an argument you were only trying to wound the low life.

 

[Borderwarrior]

Attorney's make their living confounding the obvious. The only reason to shoot another, is to stop what you believe is a life threatening action. A case can be made for using whatever you have on hand to accomplish this task. However, there are in fact,
liberal judges in the justice system that truly think humanity requires that you use ammunition that is designed and produced by reputable manufacturers that have done their due diligence on safe nearly non lethal ammo. Of course we know there is no such thing. But you can write books on what Liberal Judges DON'T KNOW.

 

[Old18C]

No, Reloads are for critters and practice. I still have to qualify in two different states and am not allowed to carry reloads for work or SD that may arise out of an asswipe who got out of prison looking me up. (has happened twice were they burglarized my home while I was gone, so I could send them back.) I only use Factory or issued ammo for carrying.

 

[RobErvin]

I used to, back in my SD revolver days. Since I've carried autoloaders no.
My attorney has advised me not to carry reloads, a number of years ago in fact!

I also have had more than one lawyer advise me to NEVER give prosecutors any evidence to use against you, and with the mass of anti-gun idiots and haters out there, one leftwing nut prosecutor could make them think you loaded atomic nuclear bombs in your carry gun to wipe out a city block, and just by sheer luck you only killed one dude.

I recall reading a story about some guy who shot criminal and the prosecutor claimed he was looking to kill someone because he had custom rig with a skull or some wording on the firearm.

My advice is get the best STOCK gun you can shoot well and buy good factory loads for personal defense. Don't give them AMMO against you!

 

[Capn Jack]

I asked an LE friend of mine what they used in their sidearms and he told me, "What ever was on sale that month."

 

[Belevolk]

I have thought about both sides of this and have decided that if I use my defence weapon I am going to jail no matter what. I consider myself an accomplished marksman and do not believe that if I was to use my weapon there would be any doubt as to the result. I have carried for over 40 years and have never had the situation arise that I needed to unholster my gun.
My partner and I reload thousands of .45acp's based on our formula. It is an jacketed hollow point at 180 grains and some good ole 800x to propel it. This is run through our Dillon 550 and it is a smooth operation. Every so often we weight the power and projectile to maintain quality control. I tend to be a bit anal about my reloading. This round is around 900 feet per second. It provides a nice crisp action in the 1911 frames without the extra stress that the plus p gives. The people I have consulted with all say the same thing do not screw around with the 45, you do not need plus p. We have experienced a few rounds that did not function correctly. I have purchased factory ammo and had a dud as well.
I believe the use of a weapon is more the issue than the ammo, as dead is still dead. There is no stock right answer, we all must make up our minds as to the risks we are willing to face.

 

[RobErvin]

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