How many firearm training classes have you taken?

[AMproducts]

Just to keep this thread rolling...what kind of qualifications can a civilian in California (such as myself) get?? I think there's a certified handgun certificate in CA. Maybe someone can chime in with more info about it or correct me.

I also know of

-NRA handgun
-CCW

By all means please list more that you know of. Also length and price might help too. Also if it's a state or national or federal only or military only. Would be awesome.

Generally, there are no "accepted everywhere" certs. The closest you're going to come to that is POST certification classes which are usually limited to LE. I've taken a lot of those classes both as a student and taught more than a few as an instructor. Unless you're LE, the certs count for nothing (unless you're training others), even then, they only count for the organization you're training for.

Most of the stuff I have done has been with NTC, I previously did training with some former LAPD swat guys who did a lot of LE training. That was much less structured and controlled than NTC is. I will definitely give NTC the thumbs up as far as being top-notch training, granted, it's very LE centric.

As far as military style stuff, I think Max with TFTT is still around, they're very military oriented, and did a lot of training classes for units deploying to the ME from about 2003 onward. However, these may be a bit advanced, and I am not sure they take singles.

 

[Joe Link]

Good info! I'd like to look into more training soon.

What do NTC and TFTT stand for?

 

[targetshooter]

Including military?

 

[targetshooter]

Good info! I'd like to look into more training soon.

What do NTC and TFTT stand for?

NATIONAL TRAINNG CENTER

TACTICAL FIREARMS TRAINING TEAM

 

[armoredman]

You can always step to the East a bit and do the Arizona CCW course, which will qualify you for your Arizona permit. While in AZ you could attend GunSite in Paulden, (never been there), and I think we have a few other professional trainers down here, such as On Sight Shooting School in Casa Grande. Might make for a fun vacation if you can swing it.

 

[Joe Link]

Including military?

I'd say that counts.

You can always step to the East a bit and do the Arizona CCW course, which will qualify you for your Arizona permit. While in AZ you could attend GunSite in Paulden, (never been there), and I think we have a few other professional trainers down here, such as On Sight Shooting School in Casa Grande. Might make for a fun vacation if you can swing it.

I'd love to attend a few classes at one of the national schools. You're lucky that you live in an area with so many great offerings!

 

[billt]

Like so many things in life, people tend to over complicate shooting because they have difficulty doing it successfully. So they search for advice from countless "trainers". Or else take expensive classes, of which there are already far too many out there. And most of them are wrong or meaningless in what they teach. "Shooting instructors" today, have become much like financial planners or marriage counselors. Less than one in 100 is actually worth listening to. Because most of them turn something simple into the complexity of a college Theseus, in order to justify what they charge.

That is why I like Rob Leatham so much. He's been doing this forever, and has won everything there is several times over doing it. He has been saying for over 25 years, there are just 3 things to shooting. 1.) Hold the gun really tight. 2.) Point the gun at what you are trying to hit. 3.) Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun.

People don't need to spend $2,000.00 and 3 days on a weekend long course to absorb that. What you do need to do is practice. And that is where the time and money should be spent. People are always willing to sell overly complex solutions to fix simple problems. Think about it. It doesn't matter if they're marriage counselors, financial planners, golf pros, or shooting instructors. Being a success financially, in your marriage, or shooting all involves basic simple instruction or behavior, that for the most part isn't easy to do on a constant basis. So instead people spend a fortune searching for something or someone to make it easy. And all that happens is they wind up over complicating something that isn't. And usually end up making it worse in the process. As in most cases of exercising something basically simple, the thirst for knowledge should be replaced by a thirst for practice. Because there really isn't that much to know in the first place.

 

[Joe Link]

Like so many things in life, people tend to over complicate shooting because they have difficulty doing it successfully. So they search for advice from countless "trainers". Or else take expensive classes, of which there are already far too many out there. And most of them are wrong or meaningless in what they teach. "Shooting instructors" today, have become much like financial planners or marriage counselors. Less than one in 100 is actually worth listening to. Because most of them turn something simple into the complexity of a college Theseus, in order to justify what they charge.

That is why I like Rob Leatham so much. He's been doing this forever, and has won everything there is several times over doing it. He has been saying for over 25 years, there are just 3 things to shooting. 1.) Hold the gun really tight. 2.) Point the gun at what you are trying to hit. 3.) Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun.

People don't need to spend $2,000.00 and 3 days on a weekend long course to absorb that. What you do need to do is practice. And that is where the time and money should be spent. People are always willing to sell overly complex solutions to fix simple problems. Think about it. It doesn't matter if they're marriage counselors, financial planners, golf pros, or shooting instructors. Being a success financially, in your marriage, or shooting all involves basic simple instruction or behavior, that for the most part isn't easy to do on a constant basis. So instead people spend a fortune searching for something or someone to make it easy. And all that happens is they wind up over complicating something that isn't. And usually end up making it worse in the process. As in most cases of exercising something basically simple, the thirst for knowledge should be replaced by a thirst for practice. Because there really isn't that much to know in the first place.

Great post and a fantastic video. I'm bookmarking this to try later

 

[nmwabbit]

there is a problem with propagating the urban myth practice makes perfect ~ if you learned from great granddad or pappa who doesn't have the basic skill set down and showed you how to do it 'ok'; or the military or LE instructor who have a different mentality for their tactical methodology of shooting; instead of JQPublic who carry for their or loved one's personal defense.

everyone benefits from the oversight from an instructor who understand their student's rational for carry, e.g., PD, competition, hunting, etc., and can present the whole technique, be able to work on the sub-technique, e.g., aiming, breath control, follow-up, etc., then put the whole back together to see if changing the sub-technique improved so the student's goal exceptions are being met!

practicing for the sake of saying i've practiced is worthless in and of itself.

 

[targetshooter]

there is a problem with propagating the urban myth practice makes perfect ~ if you learned from great granddad or pappa who doesn't have the basic skill set down and showed you how to do it 'ok'; or the military or LE instructor who have a different mentality for their tactical methodology of shooting; instead of JQPublic who carry for their or loved one's personal defense.

everyone benefits from the oversight from an instructor who understand their student's rational for carry, e.g., PD, competition, hunting, etc., and can present the whole technique, be able to work on the sub-technique, e.g., aiming, breath control, follow-up, etc., then put the whole back together to see if changing the sub-technique improved so the student's goal exceptions are being met!

practicing for the sake of saying i've practiced is worthless in and of itself.

 

[targetshooter]

Including military, more than 60 or so

 

[Havasutom]

there is a problem with propagating the urban myth practice makes perfect ~ if you learned from great granddad or pappa who doesn't have the basic skill set down and showed you how to do it 'ok'; or the military or LE instructor who have a different mentality for their tactical methodology of shooting; instead of JQPublic who carry for their or loved one's personal defense.

everyone benefits from the oversight from an instructor who understand their student's rational for carry, e.g., PD, competition, hunting, etc., and can present the whole technique, be able to work on the sub-technique, e.g., aiming, breath control, follow-up, etc., then put the whole back together to see if changing the sub-technique improved so the student's goal exceptions are being met!

practicing for the sake of saying i've practiced is worthless in and of itself.

 

[Havasutom]

I totally agree that self defense shooting is not as easy as 1,2,3.
As an ex police officer I was fortunate enough to be taught by an
Instructor named Elmer J. Pelegríno ( he literally wrote the book for LAPD shooting ). He was my college shooting team coach. The mental aspect of taking another persons life can't be underscored.
We had to draw and fire 6 rounds at 3 targets in 2.5 seconds. Sounds simple enough at the range. Now try it after running 50 yards. Without a good coach few could do it without understanding the effects of adrenaline, checking your background, and then the shooting. I went through the LAPD academy in 1978 when .38 spl
revolvers were all we could carry.I had my wrist broken and had to qualify left handed or be dropped by the academy. My coach is the only reason I was able to pass. There are a lot of over priced 1 day CCW classes being taught by the gun store clerk. Take the time to find a good instructor and not only will you learn to shoot, but you will learn the legal and mental aspects of your actions.

 

[billt]

there is a problem with propagating the urban myth practice makes perfect.......

It's not an "urban myth". It all depends on what you are practicing, and how you are taught to practice it. As I said, most of these shooting "trainers" out there today are a dime a dozen. Many, in fact I would say most, are drawn into it because it can be extremely lucrative. Not because they want to, "share their excellence". A guy like Leatham has nothing to prove. Because he's already proven it scores of times over, in just about every shooting event and discipline the sport has to offer. He has made his living off his shooting abilities, and not by teaching them to others. He is paid because he shoots extremely well.

That's not the case with most of these other instructors, and or "trainers", regardless of what they're trying to teach. Look at "golf pros" at local golf and country clubs. The country is full of them. Most of them are washed up, and could never make it on the PGA Tour. So instead they get jobs "teaching" others. Most of the guys they "teach" are still hacking up the course, long after they've invested hundreds of dollars in lessons and equipment these guys convinced them to buy. Swinging a golf club is much like shooting a gun. It's a very simple process that is just not that easy to do.

Personally, I've come to know quite a few guys over the years who have paid a great deal of money to a lot of these, "professional trainers". And the only thing most of them have come away with is a lot of new lingo and methods. But their overall shooting ability has become no better. In fact, I know a few that have gotten worse. The "Kiss Principal" applies to shooting, as much or more than it does to anything else in life. The problem most have with it is because it's simple, they think it should be easy... It's not. And THAT is where the practice comes in.

 

[billt]

Exactly the same thing Leatham say's. (#3 Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun). And it only took him 30 seconds to say it. So you have 2 of the absolute best shooters in the world telling you the exact same thing. And between the 2 of them they do far more practicing than they do talking.

 

[Joe Link]

practicing for the sake of saying i've practiced is worthless in and of itself.

Perfect practice makes perfect

 

[nmwabbit]

the olde guy in your video looks just like the golf pro nearby, or was it the tennis pro, oh i know the bowling pro,

naw...i know now, how did you word it...oh ya that's right he's the olde washed up guy who can't hack it on the competitive tour any more so is doing vids to assure you are doing the technique properly as he watches from the inanimate screen!

practice all ya want without a knowledgeable coach providing oversight cuz you know you can at least say you practiced, even tho it was practicing bad skill set.

 

[billt]

.....practice all ya want without a knowledgeable coach providing oversight cuz you know you can at least say you practiced, even tho it was practicing bad skill set.

That's why you practice. To improve your skills. You don't need constant "coaching oversight" to do simple things just because they're not easy to do. Here is a personal example of exactly what I'm talking about. Back in the early 90's when I was living in Lake Havasu City, I decided to join the gun club there, because I wanted to take up Trap shooting. At that time it was a nice, small club with just a couple hundred members, if that. Now the place has something like 1,500+ members. I had a Remington 1100 Trap gun, and I joined and started shooting on Sunday mornings.

I slowly improved, but after several months I found myself in a rut I couldn't get out of. I couldn't get much beyond 20-22 targets per round. The guys there were all friendly and gave me "pointers", and recommended several Trap shooting video tapes sold by "experts". I bought them all, and watched them over and over. Nothing improved.

Then they told me to, "Get rid of that 1100, and get myself a "good" Trap gun". So I bought myself a nice Browning BT-99 Plus. Again, nothing improved. I only became more frustrated. In fact my percentage actually dropped slightly. At the time we had an older fellow there, who was one of the best shooters in the club. But he never said much. One day I struck up a conversation with him, and started talking to him about everything I've mentioned above.

He shook his head and told me, "The first thing you need to do is throw out all those bull$h!t tapes. Don't give them away, because then some other dumb son of a b!tch is going to get all screwed up by them, just like you are now".

He said there are only 3 things to remember about Trap shooting: 1.) Take a comfortable stance, and don't go down on the gun. Bring the gun up to you. 2.) Don't lift your head. 3.) Don't stop your gun...... That's it. Don't do anything else except concentrate on those 3 things, each and every time you call for a target. And go shoot a whole bunch of shells at a whole bunch of targets. Your leads will automatically develop.

Within a month I ran my first 25. Three months later I ran 50 straight at an ATA shoot in Bullhead City. The following year I got my first 100 straight. Yeah, it really was as easy as 1-2-3. It just took a LOT of practice doing it the right way. And the right way turned out to be much simpler than I had ever imagined. And a whole lot less complicated than all of the so called "experts" made it out to be.

 

[nmwabbit]

sorry...you musta been young and kock sure of yourself as you took the advice of your 'experts' before you got rid of an inappropriate, e.g., firearm has a bad barrel, weight, etc., oh by they way, a properly trained coach not some gun club jock or 'fly by night daddy taught me expert' as a certified & experienced coach would have matched you with a viable firearm before you wasted all that ammo as well as assisted in getting out of your silly rut.

archery...they tune the equipment to the archer; long range rifle, practicing with a 10/22 won't work; shotgun activities -- skeet, trap, whatever, there are specialized balanced firearms for each activity...

this is shooting sports expertise where there are a myriad of quirks which a well rounded experienced coach verses your daddies learn'g based on practice isn't going to help.

oh by the way...get in a rut...a coach can work miracles easier that your gun club experts each suggesting something different so you find yourself standing on one foot, while you whistle dixie, practicing to get out of the rut.

btw...congrats on mastering your competition skills

 

[Ura-Ki]

Spent 20 years practicing for that ONE time it had to count, and it counted more then I care to count! I was never that good with a fighting Pistol, but I did learn it, and I practiced every day so that I could be relied on when things went side ways! My take away, learn what you can do and what your limits are, focus on the aspects that will allow you to improve, and practice the practical's as often as you can! Normal ranges don't allow this type of training, so it's up to you to find a trainer, or some one you can trust to help you out on your own! I am now considered Proficient in Fighting Handgun, but I would surprise even most "Experts" that teach it because of the amount of Combat time I have actually using all the training and techniques and have found out where I am good, and mitigated through training where I am not so good! Fighting Rifle was never a problem, even CQB, but that made me even more aware of my limits with a pistol! Practice, but make sure the practice you do is using proper techniques and training so that you are not fighting your self and learned bad habits, it harder to Unlearn wrong, then to learn the right way!
As far as Professional training, I have visited several trainers for civilian training, and have come away with some well learned lessons! 1) Combat training is great, until you become a civilian. 2)your choice of firearm should allow for as much training as you can afford. 3) Find ONE good instructor and learn every thing he/she can offer you, and then go out and find another and relearn, you will find there are as many different solutions as there are instructors. 4) find your own path, become your own teacher! THIS is the most important aspect! Professional training is designed to give you basic skills and the fundamentals of defensive vs combat shooting skills, once you have mastered the basics, you should be able to tell what your doing right, and what you need to work on, and more importantly, how to fix what's wrong! Every now and then you might run into something that has no practical solution, that's where training come in, you should be able to fall back on the basics and work the problem out!