National Unable to Ban Guns, Lawmakers Want to Weaponize the ATF Against Gun Dealers

[Joe Link]

Unable to Ban Guns, Lawmakers Want to Weaponize the ATF Against Gun Dealers

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[MadDuner]

Extra against the law always works on people who disregard laws to begin with.

Idiots.

 

[nmwabbit]

Alas, the only benefactors of this legislation, if truly introduced besides only being a place holder, will be the agency as legislation should/could/maybe provide more funding to the agency.

First and foremost, some, repeat some, FFLs are notorious for failing to heed and follow statutory guidance or common sense.

For example, ATF has over the last several years EMPHASIZED (statutory only states 'products should be secure') dealers remove their products from the pretty glass showcases and off the show rack to prevent/mitigate break-ins. Nope numerous dealers are of the mentality it is too much effort and a break-in won't ever happen to my business, residential or commercial property.

Agency lacks enough agents to even do a yearly check of FFLs, personally I cannot even imagine the amount of time to accomplish an inspection on just one box store like cabalas!

Final, the good old boys sponsoring this are probably seeking re-election and climbing, abet a bit johnny come lately, on the "OMGoodness guns are icky" stagecoach.

 

[joefoam]

Laws regulating FFLs are really tough. You'd have to be crazy to try and circumvent them for a few measly bucks. More grandstanding by politicians (you don't need to put the party affiliation of the reps to know they are democrats) to garner votes. People need to look around at population centers around the world, strict gun laws don't, and have never worked.

 

[RobErvin]

Alas, the only benefactors of this legislation, if truly introduced besides only being a place holder, will be the agency as legislation should/could/maybe provide more funding to the agency.

First and foremost, some, repeat some, FFLs are notorious for failing to heed and follow statutory guidance or common sense.

For example, ATF has over the last several years EMPHASIZED (statutory only states 'products should be secure') dealers remove their products from the pretty glass showcases and off the show rack to prevent/mitigate break-ins. Nope numerous dealers are of the mentality it is too much effort and a break-in won't ever happen to my business, residential or commercial property.

Agency lacks enough agents to even do a yearly check of FFLs, personally I cannot even imagine the amount of time to accomplish an inspection on just one box store like cabalas!

Final, the good old boys sponsoring this are probably seeking re-election and climbing, abet a bit johnny come lately, on the "OMGoodness guns are icky" stagecoach.

Exactly how are prospective gun buyers supposed to view their next potential purchases, if not inside a viewing case or a rack? Do you expect people to buy them without the ability to inspect them?

Cabelas in my city has a huge row of glass case and racks behind those, as well as floor racks where customers can view, handle, and inspect their potential purchases, and I don't know of any great problem of weapon theft at their store. But I don't live in Chicago, or any other lunatic leftist rathole where the lawless rule the roost with help from the local democrat crime syndicate.

 

[joefoam]

Every FFL I have dealt with has meticulously followed all the rules. The fines and potential incarceration keep them very cautious. Anyone trying to flout the law is asking for big trouble. Also, every gun store I have entered, large or small, has been carefully guarded by store security or bars and cables or both to keep weapons from walking away.This is just another example of pandering for votes.

 

[nmwabbit]

Every FFL I have dealt with has meticulously followed all the rules. The fines and potential incarceration keep them very cautious. Anyone trying to flout the law is asking for big trouble. Also, every gun store I have entered, large or small, has been carefully guarded by store security or bars and cables or both to keep weapons from walking away.This is just another example of pandering for votes.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/osii508fflthefts-lossescy16pdf/download

Of the 18.3K firearms reported by FFLs lost/stolen in 2016, at least 9K were considered "lost" and 7K were stolen.

Seems some FFLs aren't securing their products are they?

[sidebar: how on earth does a FFL lose a firearm, hummm]

Good read on who the BGs are: Profile of an FFL Burglary • NSSF

 

[RobErvin]

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/osii508fflthefts-lossescy16pdf/download

Of the 18.3K firearms reported by FFLs lost/stolen in 2016, at least 9K were considered "lost" and 7K were stolen.

Seems some FFLs aren't securing their products are they?

[sidebar: how on earth does a FFL lose a firearm, hummm]

Good read on who the BGs are: Profile of an FFL Burglary • NSSF

From this report "Profile of an FFL Burglary" it would seem that many of the thefts involve gangs, and stolen vehicles being driven through a wall to gain access to the guns.

"From what we have been investigating over the past four years, we are seeing more and more brazen acts of burglary, primarily the smash-and-grab event that is often broadcast on the evening news. This type of burglary usually includes two vehicles being stolen, one to penetrate the FFL location and the other used to flee the scene with the stolen goods. This type of burglary results in devastating property damage for the FFL, but typically only a handful of firearms being stolen."

I would say it's kinda difficult to secure most buildings from a vehicle being driven through a wall.

I am curious about the reports of lost weapons. Would those be due to horrible boating accidents?

 

[nmwabbit]

sorry those are lost as reported by FFLs, not JQPublic.

 

[joefoam]

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/osii508fflthefts-lossescy16pdf/download

Of the 18.3K firearms reported by FFLs lost/stolen in 2016, at least 9K were considered "lost" and 7K were stolen.

Seems some FFLs aren't securing their products are they?

[sidebar: how on earth does a FFL lose a firearm, hummm]

Good read on who the BGs are: Profile of an FFL Burglary • NSSF

And so if an FFL 'lost' a bunch of weapons what happens as a result of an investigation of the loss, assuming there was one, to the FFL? Or does the ATF just sigh and say oh, well?

 

[nmwabbit]

joeF, et al., remember if a shoe retailer 'loses' a couple of pairs of shoes due to employee theft or inadvertent throwing away boxes and might still contain product, no harm no foul and just lost revenue.

An FFL reports a loss or, heaven forbid the loss is discovered during an ATF inspection, the paperwork and investigation is horrific, if employee theft, woe be to the employee, if a firearm is 'misidentified' from business to personal, eh smack,on the hand and a report if the firearm can be found.

But remember JoeF, unlike a 'normal' retailer, a FFL's business needs re-certification and when the agent visits to do the re-cert visit, you can bet your paycheck, the first questions discussed will center around previously reported lost/theft of firearms and if there have been others since, how has the FFL mitigated the issues, etc., and If there are future losses/thefts the FFL is out of business and loses everything.

PS: there is always an ATF investigation and katy bar the door if a 'lost' firearm is used to commit a crime.

 

[nmwabbit]

From this report "Profile of an FFL Burglary" it would seem that many of the thefts involve gangs, and stolen vehicles being driven through a wall to gain access to the guns.

"From what we have been investigating over the past four years, we are seeing more and more brazen acts of burglary, primarily the smash-and-grab event that is often broadcast on the evening news. This type of burglary usually includes two vehicles being stolen, one to penetrate the FFL location and the other used to flee the scene with the stolen goods. This type of burglary results in devastating property damage for the FFL, but typically only a handful of firearms being stolen."

I would say it's kinda difficult to secure most buildings from a vehicle being driven through a wall.

I am curious about the reports of lost weapons. Would those be due to horrible boating accidents?

RobErvin, et al., not so tough, just look at the front of retailers who have installed the six inch circumference x .25(.5) og x 5,or 6 foot tall steel pipes filled with concrete two feet deep & two feet apart in front of their stores.

But as stated, some still,leave their firearms hanging or in their glass cases cuz it is is such a pain in the derrière to put up and out every day.

 

[joefoam]

joeF, et al., remember if a shoe retailer 'loses' a couple of pairs of shoes due to employee theft or inadvertent throwing away boxes and might still contain product, no harm no foul and just lost revenue.

An FFL reports a loss or, heaven forbid the loss is discovered during an ATF inspection, the paperwork and investigation is horrific, if employee theft, woe be to the employee, if a firearm is 'misidentified' from business to personal, eh smack,on the hand and a report if the firearm can be found.

But remember JoeF, unlike a 'normal' retailer, a FFL's business needs re-certification and when the agent visits to do the re-cert visit, you can bet your paycheck, the first questions discussed will center around previously reported lost/theft of firearms and if there have been others since, how has the FFL mitigated the issues, etc., and If there are future losses/thefts the FFL is out of business and loses everything.

PS: there is always an ATF investigation and katy bar the door if a 'lost' firearm is used to commit a crime.

If an investigation is conducted and the FFL cannot explain the loss, then that particular FFL is now out of business and will not ever be re certified, case closed. I don't what else you could expect. With the huge volume of gun sales and the miniscule amount of 'losses' it seems that in general the FFL's are complying with the law.

 

[targetshooter]

It also appears that all this conversation from NM centers on LGS's. In my little community of less than 25,000 people we have 1 LGS and at least 8 FFL'S WORKING OUT OF THEIR HOMES OR GARAGES. I'm sure they have them in NM, too. Quite possibly, in the same ratio. And also, most of those have minimal, if any, inventory in stock.

 

[nmwabbit]

If an investigation is conducted and the FFL cannot explain the loss, then that particular FFL is now out of business and will not ever be re certified, case closed. I don't what else you could expect. With the huge volume of gun sales and the miniscule amount of 'losses' it seems that in general the FFL's are complying with the law.

Most troubling issues centers around misidentifying the firearm in the FFL's A&D book(s) by the Responsible Person, AKA FFL, or the FFL gets complacent and tasks a 'trusted' employee to administer the inventory and something isn't listed in the A&D but ATF records show the firearm was in fact 'distributed' to the FFL.

Remember, FFL's can, after certain time frames, move their firearms into PERSONAL or into a rental/training status where inventory status might get vague. So FFL [or employee] means to moves a business purchased handgun into personal status so they can CC/OC the firearm and 'forgets' to update their A&D.

Or 'trusted' employee scout master takes six 10/22's out to BSA resident summer camp for a couple of weeks and asks someone else to return the FIVE rifles back to the shop, again the FLL's A&D didn't get annotated the rifles were being used for community service training!

As for never recertified...eh another family member applies, appointed Responsible Person and the 'family' business legacy continues.

Trouble only rears it's head if the firearm is used in a crime...

 

[nmwabbit]

It also appears that all this conversation from NM centers on LGS's. In my little community of less than 25,000 people we have 1 LGS and at least 8 FFL'S WORKING OUT OF THEIR HOMES OR GARAGES. I'm sure they have them in NM, too. Quite possibly, in the same ratio. And also, most of those have minimal, if any, inventory in stock.[/QUOTE

Sorry, not sure,where you perceived that notion this conversation was NM centric, but if someone from another location gives you viable information about proper shooting skills would that also fall under your perception(s) the conversation was TX, NM, or AZ centric especially since ATF's 5300.4 doesn't care where in the US the FFL is located doing business.

Those working out of their home are at significant risk from several fronts:
1. Most home FFLs or gunsmiths are in the business to buy for themselves at wholesale, and while not 'inventory' per se, have higher priced personal firearms on hand which is quite a boon for those intent on seeking firearms.

2. ATF publishes the exact addresses of every FFL in this country on the WWW. Therefore, Home based FFL's fall under the trap of "well i don't have that much inventory so do not need extensive security, this here safe alone will do and I do not need a central alarm system as it costs too much!" The BGs love that mentality cuz the firearms are now easy pickings.

3. Small towns mean they are under the protective auspices of good olde county sheriff, who might be hours away. Further, investigative services in rural American verses big city is lacking.

Middle of the night or caught unawares while playing cards with your neighbours on a friday night, home invasion transpires and everyone is murdered and your safe broken into and you are not discovered until,the next day and a half lying dead around the dining room table. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...f-4-killed-in-nc-were-playing-cards-when-shot

According to an ATF database, J and J Gunsmithing was a federally licensed firearm business as of July 2017. The gunsmithing business was registered to Harris at the same address where the killings occurred.

 

[joefoam]

Wow, that makes me want to get listed on a national gun registry even more. With information available to everyone over the internet, I too can be the target of a home invasion of thugs looking to steal guns. Wonder if the anti gun crowd has considered this consequence.

 

[RobErvin]

RobErvin, et al., not so tough, just look at the front of retailers who have installed the six inch circumference x .25(.5) og x 5,or 6 foot tall steel pipes filled with concrete two feet deep & two feet apart in front of their stores.

But as stated, some still,leave their firearms hanging or in their glass cases cuz it is is such a pain in the derrière to put up and out every day.

Most of those businesses don't own the property that they do business from, they rent or lease the location, and thus they have little say on what can be installed in the parking lot.

And I was just quoting from the article you posted, where investigators found that was the way most thefts were carried out. I have no clue which side of the buildings are being blasted with vehicles, but I would venture to say most businesses of this type have at least front and back access, giving thieves a choice.

 

[targetshooter]

you sure seem to have a LOT of insight about all the bad things that happen around FFL'S, thefts, break-ins, etc. and my comments about your info are based on your knowledge of what happens there. But you have NO KNOWLEDGE of how the sheriff or local PD's work around here, so I guess that makes your comments about those first responders ECCENTRIC?
I guess I'm just going to truly ignore anything you have to say as being irrelevant and self-aggrandizing prattle, pretty much as it has always been!

Keep your ego floating.

 

[nvshooter]

After the 197-proof, Evil Left Media idiocy we have seen this week over what's going-on regarding those poor, dear MS-13 possibles at our southern border, I am not surprised that Chucky "Schitbag" Schumer has just not issued an executive order that all legally-owned firearms be confiscated and destroyed (no compensation granted), that all owners be immediately sentenced to confinement camps above the Arctic Circle, all their real property be confiscated and sold at whatever it might bring and such proceeds be given to MS-13 so that those dear kiddies will have a rung or two up the ladder over Americans' kids.

Sounds crazy and stupid, yes? Well, consider with who we who love our country and our laws are dealing. These look at a man who fought Communism in Vietnam in 1968 but voted for Trump in 2016-- as a Nazi. What is the next argument of the Evil Left once they have called Trump Hitler, ICE the Nazi Party and have equated the American People who voted for Trump to be Hitler's rabid supporters among the German People of 1938? To those of us with an intelligence, the Evil Left has topped-out on their argument. They have nothing more to say. But to them, their argument is that we who disagree with them must be eliminated.

We have already seen liberal crazies attempt to murder elected Republicans. I fear we shall see it more frequently in the future. And who will be blamed when some liberal smear of sewage kills a conservative? Why, the conservative American who owns a gun, that's who! You and me, even though we were miles and miles from where it happened. All of this stuff makes me wish I'd been born and lived my entire life before 1900...