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Question about private party firearms sales these days

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I haven't bought private party in quite some time, like over 5 years or more.

My question is it seems private party sellers have upped their personal requirements for sale without any apparent reason to me to do so. Is there something I'm missing here?

I thought the only real requirement on buyer and seller were one party has the gun the other party has the money.

I am unaware of any current or past legal requirement Federal or State to present identification, fill out a bill of sale, or anything else?

A State Drivers license doesn't tell you the person is a prohibited possessor.
Even requiring a buyer have a CCW permit is no guarantee he or she didn't just become a prohibited possessor.
A bill of sale only records the sale, but offers no legal protection.

So what is it?
Warm fuzziness?

I'm not trying to start anything here except get a better understanding of what's going on inside people's heads.

I have no problem providing the information to someone, but I do want to know or understand why they think or feel it necessary.

Are our brains becoming slowly warped by the Liberal left? LOL!

I appreciate the feedback in advance.
 
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The bill of sale that I use has the same questions on it that the form 4473 has (for the most part). When the person signs it, they are stating that they are legal to purchase a firearm. I only ask to see their license, to verify that the information matches what they gave me to fill out the bill of sale (I prefill them on my computer, then print them out).

The bill of sale will never be seen by anyone else, unless BATF comes knocking on my door, telling me that a firearm that I purchased from a gun shop was just used in a crime. I pull it out, show it to them, and they should be on their merry way. It is simply to provide peace of mind for both parties.
 
OP
wildcat455
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Lol! I was just looking at that pistol you have for sale!
Definitely interested.

Why are you doing it though without any legal requirement?
Not saying you should or shouldn't. It's your business, just wondering why?

Peace of mind,? Security? Those are ideals.
No matter what you do, you'll never have either if you can't let go of the fear of them knocking at your door.
Kind of like Liberty. Something we should all have but our fears of this or that put us into THEIR box for them!!

I assume you are righteous in your actions. Responsible. Prudent. If not you should be. If so, what do you realistically have to fear?

I'm not sure that BOS will get you're looking for. It just documents the sale, and if you go down the rabbit hole to boost your own requirements above what the law requires, I believe it feeds the prosecuting attorney's argument that You must have known or suspected something was up with the sale or why else would you require such a thing? .
Which only serves to pull you in further.

Also like someone requiring someone to be 21 to buy their pistol in a private sale.
An 18 year old is legally allowed to buy a private sale pistol, they just can't from an FFL.
I think that is More of a federal restriction on the FFL which spills over into the rights of an 18 year old.

Why do we seek to restrict everyone, and in the end, restrict ourselves?

Just a little bit about me.
I'm a far cry from 18, I have a current valid CCW, I am not a prohibited possessor by ANY stretch.
I am concerned for the eroding away of out rights, as "Free Citizens", (Which in my opinion, is an illusion today as compared to when this whole country kicked off, but that can be a subject for another post).

I'm 55, it's not like I got allot of years ahead of me living under the Jack boot of some Communist Fed, but I care about our future as a country of free citizens.
My concerns for the direction of this country stem from my patriotism, my God given rights, assured to me by my constitution, NOT granted to me by it or my government. I do believe in my country, my constitution, but I do actually fear my government.
And I'd like to see future generations enjoy freedoms and liberties we have already been denied by our political leaders and people in our Government.

That is the source of my curiosity toward this. If as people and citizens we seek to undermine the liberties and freedoms we are legally entitled to, I assume because of fear, well, aren't we furthering the agenda of the Left, which is something no free citizen should want?
 
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With the way the legal system is today (and with how litigation happy people are), I just prefer not to take any chances. As for handguns and 18 years olds, federal law DOES restrict the possession of handguns and handgun ammunition by people under 21, with limited exceptions. I just prefer to have something to fall back on, just in case. I do it for peace of mind.
 
OP
wildcat455
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As for handguns and 18 years olds, federal law DOES restrict the possession of handguns and handgun ammunition by people under 21, with limited exceptions.
Thank you for your explanation, I appreciate it, knowing you didn’t owe me one, as the reason is personal.
As far as the part I quoted you on,
I believe you to be incorrect.

Under federal law, the minimum age to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer is 21. But the age limit drops to 18 if the gun is being purchased from a private, unlicensed seller, which could be a neighbor or someone online, or at gun show.


I also believe an 18 year old can buy handgun ammunition (really, not many handgun exclusive calibers) from a private party.
Or it can be purchased for him from a store and given to him (usually by his parents)
 
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Trust me, when the ATF comes knocking on your door because a firearm YOU purchased brand new is used in a crime - YOU will want to have documentation that tells them who you sold it to, and when.
 
OP
wildcat455
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Good morning MadDuner, I know you’ve talked about this before, but can you either elaborate on the details of your experience or point me to a thread that has them?

I just don’t see how you could be implicated in a crime or of any wrong doing when your personal situation would isolate you from that, and the sale was presumably legal?
Was the crime committed by the person you sold the gun to, or someone that person sold it to? What was the purpose of the ATF contacting you, outside of the serial number of the gun was shown to be sold to you? Did they have the gun, but not the suspect? If they did not have a suspect, were you told you were a suspect? Did you have a receipt for who you sold it to? I appreciate your input on this and thank you in advance.
 

DB Wesner

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I can only speak for myself, but when I've sold I've only sold to people that I know and have known for years. Then again I rarely sell.
 
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You can not sell a pistol to an out of state resident that is why you must show ID. In AZ an 18yo can buy a pistol from a private party per AZ Law but not from a Store because stores have to go by Federal Law which is 21yo for pistols.

For me on a rare private sale pic of is DL or CCW and a signed Basic bill of sale

These are just my understanding of the law and minimum CYA
 
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I've sold, but rarely buy. When I do buy, it's almost always from people I've known for quite a while. If you trust the seller, you feel much better in the buying of the item...
 
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Does anyone think to turn this around in a private sale?

As a buyer. Wouldn't you want some type of paperwork showing where/who you acquired a firearm from?

What if YOU are found with a stolen gun or one that was used in a crime at some other previous time.

As an FYI..I like buying guns through private sales. I have done sales buying and selling, both ways. With paperwork and also with cash and a handshake.
I have no problem providing ID, CCW, and filling out a BOS as long as it doesn't require registration
 
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Good morning MadDuner, I know you’ve talked about this before, but can you either elaborate on the details of your experience or point me to a thread that has them?

I just don’t see how you could be implicated in a crime or of any wrong doing when your personal situation would isolate you from that, and the sale was presumably legal?
Was the crime committed by the person you sold the gun to, or someone that person sold it to? What was the purpose of the ATF contacting you, outside of the serial number of the gun was shown to be sold to you? Did they have the gun, but not the suspect? If they did not have a suspect, were you told you were a suspect? Did you have a receipt for who you sold it to? I appreciate your input on this and thank you in advance.
I sold my original Colt AR-15 to a guy I worked with, who was an AZ resident. Years later he moved to CA and took it to a public gun range and got in trouble with it. The ATF was questioning me because somewhere between when I sold it to him, and him taking it to the public gun range - it turned into a select fire weapon with an auto sear in it. Then he tried to tell them that he bought it from me that way.... so the crime I was accused of was converting this into a select fire. I didn’t even know you could do that.

The big issue on my end was that I held clearances, and was now not only questioned by ATF, but DIS also. My freedom, my ability to buy and own firearms, my clearances, and of course my career was at stake. I had to give a sworn deposition that I sold it to him in original condition. It never turned into anything more serious than just those meetings and questions - luckily! I certainly didn’t have any money for a lawyer or anything like that.

You never know what kind of crap you will get drug into...hence my decision to never sell another one. Now I just buy more storage space for them. LOL
 
OP
wildcat455
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You can not sell a pistol to an out of state resident that is why you must show ID. In AZ an 18yo can buy a pistol from a private party per AZ Law but not from a Store because stores have to go by Federal Law which is 21yo for pistols.

For me on a rare private sale pic of is DL or CCW and a signed Basic bill of sale

These are just my understanding of the law and minimum CYA
You too, would be incorrect sir.

You can sell a firearm to an out of state resident, but you have to do so through an FFL in his home state. The buyer will be required to fill out a 4473 and get a NICS background check before receiving the firearm.

There is no mandate or law i am aware of, Federal or Arizona, that says you have to show an ID.
If you believe there is, please cite it.

This is off the ATF page. Link provided elsewhere in this post:

"A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

Asking the question is enough.

"Are you prohibited from receiving or possessing this firearm under Federal or State law"?

Now, if you ask for ID doesn't that automatically indicate you may have "reasonable cause to believe the transferee (buyer) is prohibited"? And if so, why you selling to him her?

If they are going to lie to you in their answer verbally, then why would lying to you on a document be any different? The crime for prohibited possession is worse than that of falsifying a BOS statement.

Additionally, Arizona issues drivers licences to legal resident aliens. How's that proof of citizenship?

Federal law stipulates both ages. 21 for FFL purchase, 18 for private purchase. Arizona doesn't have a law that raises the private purchase age.

Rather than look up long boring legal stuff, you could go here for information on buying and selling in Arizona.


Or here, for Federal stuff, if you prefer.


I only have one question for now:

If you consider people nefarious, and you also consider people sue happy, and you also think the BATFE is out to put you on trial, I fail to see what good any BOS is going to do?

It would seem to me your only safe recourse is to not sell or buy any firearm private party. Because if you do, you implicate yourself because you can most likely be shown to have "Reasonable cause".


MadDuner, I suspect you would have had to go through what you went through to clear yourself of any wrongdoing, with or without the receipt or BOS. In your particular case, the BOS just established a sale date. Nothing more. Additional information and deposition required to clear you of modifying the gun. I understand. It's all very scary and when you have so much you love on the line, that just exacerbates things. Really, the only thing you can do is what you did do. Stop selling guns. But do you still buy them private party?

I've never had to walk away from a sale of a firearm, but I would as either buyer or seller, if I had any reasonable cause.
 
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Wildcat, A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

And with out seeing an ID how would i know what state the Unlicensed resident Resides?

Odd i know but you CAN! buy a firearm and not be a citizen of the U.S. with proper student and work visa's
 
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as for the Age of purchase federal law is 18 for long guns and 21 for pistols

AZ law is 18 for long guns and 18 for pistols. That is why in a private sale in AZ an 18yo can buy a pistol but they can't purchase a pistol from a store.
 
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Just FYI you can do a face to face transfer at a FFL, if you are concerned about a sale the firearm would go into the the stores Federal bound book then the Buyer would fill out the 4473 and pass a background check or proviade a ccw.like a normal purchase. Every shop sets its own price but some are as little as $20 and if the firearm is ever stolen or used in a crime the ATF would contact that store and get the buyers information, that would eliminate the seller from ever being contacted. As for the buyer if it ever came up stolen it would prove they were not the thief, and provide the name of the seller.
 

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