Arizona Information on Bill of Sale - Arizona

[bigcountry350]

Hi,
For those of you that have conducted a private firearm sale in Arizona, what information do you usually include on a bill of sale?

I've seen some examples, and I'm thinking.

1. Seller Name / Address
2. Buyer Name / Address (Possibly Driver license number)?

3. Gun brand and model
4. Gun serial number

5. Sale price
6. Date of sale

7. Disclaimer that the buyer isn't prohibited from owning.

Any other key points I'm missing?

I know these probably don't have a lot of legal teeth without being notarized, but if the buyer is on the up and up, they will likely sign it without a problem, giving the seller some piece of mind?

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[MadDuner]

If I ever do sell another firearm in the future.... I will create ZERO paperwork or paper trail.

 

[dangerranger]

When I'm Buying or selling I ask for Name and address and maybe a DL. if anything Hinky happens , I can point to that and say I bought it from... or I sold it to.... And point to the DL as a way to show I did know they were a State Resident.

 

[1971Chevelle]

If you are going to insist on a bill of sale, this one should work just fine: https://printablebillofsale.com/generic/generic-firearm-bill-of-sale-form/

 

[billdeserthill]

Hi,
For those of you that have conducted a private firearm sale in Arizona, what information do you usually include on a bill of sale?

I've seen some examples, and I'm thinking.

1. Seller Name / Address
2. Buyer Name / Address (Possibly Driver license number)?

3. Gun brand and model
4. Gun serial number

5. Sale price
6. Date of sale

7. Disclaimer that the buyer isn't prohibited from owning.

Any other key points I'm missing?

I know these probably don't have a lot of legal teeth without being notarized, but if the buyer is on the up and up, they will likely sign it without a problem, giving the seller some piece of mind?

Many folks won't buy your gun if you are set on a bill of sale--why did you come to Arizona if you want to do some liberal stuff like this anyway?

 

[Gunslinger808]

What good is a bill of sale unless you intend to turn it over to authorities if asked?

 

[billdeserthill]

Neither the State of Arizona or the ATF require a bill of sale, so why do people insist upon making up their own rules for selling guns?

I'm even seeing gun owners on armslist insisting on a background check--you bastards stay out of Arizona, we don't need anymore liberals here

 

[0311 Brian]

AMEN

 

[dangerranger]

The state of CA does not require a Bill of sale or a health certificate on the transfer of horses or cattle either. But there is no way I would accept them without both. There are people that refuse to give any information for a sale. I just move on to the next sale.
A large part of the guns I buy and sell are collectables. Part of there value is in Provenance. [ The ability to prove a gun belonged to a certain person or was used in a certain place]. Without that it's just an old gun. And without that I get suspicious of fakery.
If people can't or won't put their name on it, I probably won't buy from them, And without a name and an ID I won't sell to them. DR

 

[billdeserthill]

The state of CA does not require a Bill of sale or a health certificate on the transfer of horses or cattle either. But there is no way I would accept them without both. There are people that refuse to give any information for a sale. I just move on to the next sale.
A large part of the guns I buy and sell are collectables. Part of there value is in Provenance. [ The ability to prove a gun belonged to a certain person or was used in a certain place]. Without that it's just an old gun. And without that I get suspicious of fakery.
If people can't or won't put their name on it, I probably won't buy from them, And without a name and an ID I won't sell to them. DR

I glad you're happy with that system, I just want to keep it the heck away from Arizona

 

[dangerranger]

Collectors in AZ would not take or would severely discount a collectable gun without a paper trail too . It's like having the original box! It adds value! DR

 

[billdeserthill]

Collectors in AZ would not take or would severely discount a collectable gun without a paper trail too . It's like having the original box! It adds value! DR

Great story, it almost put me to sleep

 

[MadDuner]

Creating a nice tidy paper trail will certainly help the gun-grabbers as they go about assaulting those who disagree with their communist agenda.

I'm not helping them destroy my fellow citizens by giving them an address to attack.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

I cover this in my CCW and firearm classes.

The reason for the bill of sale is just in case the firearm turns up stolen or used in a crime and who you got it from. It could also show up stolen at any time after the purchase or if for whatever reason you use it in (self) defense let's say the ballistics match a gun that was used in several murders.

It's a CYA (cover your assets) maneuver nothing more. It's to keep you out of jail as you don't know the history of said firearm. If you don't know the history of the firearm it becomes hearsay that you bought it in a private transaction. With motor vehicles that require registration and a title, you know the origin of the motor vehicle. If that firearm you bought in a private transaction ever turns up stolen or used in a crime, it's your backside that's in a sling.

I had two used gun sales back when we had handgun registration in Clark County NV. Guess what, I got a call several weeks later that I have two stolen firearms in my possession from a LVMPD Firearms Unit detective. I called the FFL that did the transfer to verify this was legit. He unfortunately did and I contacted the LVMPD detective. I told the detective where I got them and gave him printouts of the gunbroker listings. He gave me a property report for the two firearms. The sellers did their due diligence as they acquired them used themselves. One was a private party and the other was a pawn shop. The pawn broker turns in a spreadsheet to his county sheriff's department every time they take in a firearm. Turns out a deputy or civilian employee wasn't doing their job. I don't know if that sheriff ended up not getting re-elected or the employees responsible were disciplined.

Both sellers apologized and refunded my money upon getting a copy of the LVMPD property report. I also gave them the LVMPD detective's contact information including his P-number. The private seller got his pound of flesh from the FFL he bought it from. The pawn broker I'm guessing either ate it or had to file a business insurance claim.

That's why you get a bill of sale or statement of gift or temporary transfer; as CYA from any civil or criminal liability associated with a firearm whose history you know nothing about and to release you from any criminal or civil liability after the firearm is loaned or gifted.

I also extend it to temporary and gift transfers unless the person I gift or loan the firearm to does something inappropriate with it so my backside doesn't end up in a sling.

And you're looking at Federal and State charges if you don't successfully win the case in court.

I'm sure that a 2A hating BATFE agent, judge and prosecutor will take your word that you bought the gun from a private party without a bill of sale or statement of transfer especially during an election year and Hitler had a kosher diet.

And no, judicial and prosecutorial misconduct doesn't happen at all. I'm sure if you raise the late Harold Fish via Ouija board he'll confirm that.

But hey, if you want to not get a bill or sale or some documentation of transfer and risk a four to five figure legal bill and possibly end up learning how to use a lock in a sock, having to wear shower shoes and invent a better recipe for "spread" who am I to argue?

 

[MadDuner]

I cover this in my CCW and firearm classes.

The reason for the bill of sale is just in case the firearm turns up stolen or used in a crime and who you got it from. It could also show up stolen at any time after the purchase or if for whatever reason you use it in (self) defense let's say the ballistics match a gun that was used in several murders.

It's a CYA (cover your assets) maneuver nothing more. It's to keep you out of jail as you don't know the history of said firearm. If you don't know the history of the firearm it becomes hearsay that you bought it in a private transaction. With motor vehicles that require registration and a title, you know the origin of the motor vehicle. If that firearm you bought in a private transaction ever turns up stolen or used in a crime, it's your backside that's in a sling.

I had two used gun sales back when we had handgun registration in Clark County NV. Guess what, I got a call several weeks later that I have two stolen firearms in my possession from a LVMPD Firearms Unit detective. I called the FFL that did the transfer to verify this was legit. He unfortunately did and I contacted the LVMPD detective. I told the detective where I got them and gave him printouts of the gunbroker listings. He gave me a property report for the two firearms. The sellers did their due diligence as they acquired them used themselves. One was a private party and the other was a pawn shop. The pawn broker turns in a spreadsheet to his county sheriff's department every time they take in a firearm. Turns out a deputy or civilian employee wasn't doing their job. I don't know if that sheriff ended up not getting re-elected or the employees responsible were disciplined.

Both sellers apologized and refunded my money upon getting a copy of the LVMPD property report. I also gave them the LVMPD detective's contact information including his P-number. The private seller got his pound of flesh from the FFL he bought it from. The pawn broker I'm guessing either ate it or had to file a business insurance claim.

That's why you get a bill of sale or statement of gift or temporary transfer; as CYA from any civil or criminal liability associated with a firearm whose history you know nothing about and to release you from any criminal or civil liability after the firearm is loaned or gifted.

I also extend it to temporary and gift transfers unless the person I gift or loan the firearm to does something inappropriate with it so my backside doesn't end up in a sling.

And you're looking at Federal and State charges if you don't successfully win the case in court.

I'm sure that a 2A hating BATFE agent, judge and prosecutor will take your word that you bought the gun from a private party without a bill of sale or statement of transfer especially during an election year and Hitler had a kosher diet.

And no, judicial and prosecutorial misconduct doesn't happen at all. I'm sure if you raise the late Harold Fish via Ouija board he'll confirm that.

But hey, if you want to not get a bill or sale or some documentation of transfer and risk a four to five figure legal bill and possibly end up learning how to use a lock in a sock, having to wear shower shoes and invent a better recipe for "spread" who am I to argue?

Thank you for carefully stating your case and justifications for how you handle things.

It will surprise no one that the gun grabbers will use every tool in their toolbox to destroy as many gun owners as they can, and by any means available to them. This will all devolve into a witch hunt and most likely will never again be about justice or the actual return of stolen property.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

Thank you for carefully stating your case and justifications for how you handle things.

It will surprise no one that the gun grabbers will use every tool in their toolbox to destroy as many gun owners as they can, and by any means available to them. This will all devolve into a witch hunt and most likely will never again be about justice or the actual return of stolen property.

YW. If I can get bit with stolen firearms and I've been collecting since going on 30 years now, anyone can. If that privately transferred firearm does end up being flagged as stolen or its ballistics are tied to a crime, it's your bacon that's out of the frying pan and into the fire.

If you go through a FFL, common sense dictates that you won't be charged because only someone looking for a Darwin Award would go through a FFL to transfer a firearm they know is stolen or used in a crime. That bill of sale or statement of gift or temporary transfer automatically excludes you from the crime(s) tied to that firearm plain and simple. I also recommend you keep an electronic version of that document in your e-mail or in the cloud so it can be retrieved and shown to the detective assigned to the case.

Possession is nine tenths of the law. Possession of a stolen firearm or firearm used in a crime is ten tenths unless you can prove you reasonably didn't know the history of said firearm.

 

[ynotAZ]

And how much ID are you going to demand to prove I am the person on the bill of sale?

Yeah if you are found with a stolen gun you will have to answer questions. If LE has been looking to get you for something and couldn't your questioning will be intense and a B O S will make no difference. If L E has little reason to be interested in you, the questioning about your possession of a stolen firearm will be short and sweet.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

And how much ID are you going to demand to prove I am the person on the bill of sale?

Yeah if you are found with a stolen gun you will have to answer questions. If LE has been looking to get you for something and couldn't your questioning will be intense and a B O S will make no difference. If L E has little reason to be interested in you, the questioning about your possession of a stolen firearm will be short and sweet.

Exactly. The Harold Fish case which is the classic example of judicial and prosecutorial misconduct and probably also LE misconduct which caused some major judicial change for Mr. Fish's release from prison.

What I'd require is their resident CCW and to look at their permit number and verify that they have an AZ DL or ID. A person's CCW in all States is cross referenced to their State issued DL or ID. This is to determine residency. I have yet to apply for a CCW in any State that doesn't ask for your State issued DL or ID whether it's Real ID compliant or not. States put this on the application if there's a different fee structure for non-residents and if they have specific criteria for issuing to non-residents; IL and OR immediately come to mind. I wish you could just use your US Passport book or card to get a non-resident CCW.
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Rant mode on
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Whiskey tango foxtrot difference does it make what State I reside in if I meet a State's statutory training requirements especially if they are as liberal as AZ or FL?

I unfortunately maintain an OR CHL which has the asinine requirement that non-resident CHL holders be a resident of an adjoining State but they have a very liberal training requirement. Pretty much if you can fog a mirror and get an NRA basic pistol certificate you'll meet the OR training requirements for their CHL. I still SMH over why OR has their asinine residency requirements to get a non-resident CHL plus I have to apply for my renewals in person especially since NV recognizes OR CHLs. I'm guessing it's because they get no easily verifiable revenue from visitors and tourists as they have no sales tax. However, visitors are supporting businesses so OR does get trickle down revenue from tourists and visitors as it's highly likely those businesses are paying taxes based on gross revenue.

NV is the opposite. NV DPS will add any State to our recognition list if they meet two statutory requirements;

• 24/7 online verification of another USA jurisdiction's license or permit through NLETS.
• Some statutory training requirement.

It use to be that the recognition requirement had to be "substantially similar" to NV. The State legislature realized this wasn't working and made the requirement less stringent for visitors. NV residents got screwed because we don't get recognition in a State that NV recognizes. If I ever get elected to the NV Legislature, I will make mutual recognition a requirement to be on the NV DPS recognition list. This is pure bullcorn that our State government isn't looking out for NV residents.
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Rant mode off

 

[ynotAZ]

The BOS has become a hot topic on local firearms forums in AZ. One post indicated a guy takes pictures of license plate of the purchaser's vehicle for his records.

The majority here feel they will not do business with someone demanding a BOS. The reasons are simple, they want, and deserve the anonymity of not buying through a dealer and making a record of what they own. In addition, they just like me, refuse to give their personal information to a someone they do not know. Of this majority who will not deal with a BOS, those that I know personally, only buy, sell and trade firearms with people that they know, people that someone they know has vouched for, or someone who has been on the local firearms forums for several years, has a good reputation, and has not demonstrated stupidity.

Having said all of that, for me, life is too short to do a deal with my personal information being in the hands of someone I don't know. A photo of my D/L and/or my vehicle plate or my full name and address, with unknown photos taken during the transaction, is too much information for me to allow.

Just as a side note, one AZ legislator has introduced a bill that would require dealers to record video of firearms transactions and maintain a database of all of the transactions. I don't need that type of surveillance becoming the norm for private sales, no matter what the excuse.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

The BOS has become a hot topic on local firearms forums in AZ. One post indicated a guy takes pictures of license plate of the purchaser's vehicle for his records.

...

Having said all of that, for me, life is too short to do a deal with my personal information being in the hands of someone I don't know. A photo of my D/L and/or my vehicle plate or my full name and address, with unknown photos taken during the transaction, is too much information for me to allow.

And life is too short for me to deal with someone selling me a firearm that may be hot or of interest in a crime.

I've been bitten twice by being transferred stolen firearms through FFLs. What spared me the legal bill of Federal and State charges of possession of stolen firearms was the fact I used a FFL and Clark County handgun registration. LVMPD finally got around to running the S/Ns several weeks after they were transferred to me. The firearms were taken into custody before they could do major legal harm to me.

The only thing I record if I don't know the seller is their CCW license or permit number. I will only do a private sale not involving a FFL if the seller has a CCW and is willing to let me record the number on the BOS. The number of the license or permit is cross referenced to their driver license or State ID. I visually inspect if the seller's State issued DL or ID.

Think of the BOS has a legal prophylactic. I don't know the history of the firearm you're selling me. You might have used it yesterday in a liquor store robbery and are dumping evidence of your crime. In my two experiences, the sellers didn't know the firearms were stolen and they did reasonable due diligence to ensure they weren't before they sold them to me.

Now imagine during a homicide investigation after a (self) defense incident I used one of those two firearms. If you get involved in a (self) defense incident, it will be investigated by a homicide detective plain and simple. They're there to determine if the homicide was justifiable. Well guess what, I'm now in lock up because of the fact that firearm discovered was stolen. Now an extra digit may be added to my bail or I might even be denied bail because of the simple fact I used a firearm that was stolen that I didn't know was stolen. The same thing can also happen during another encounter with LE where they may run the S/N of your firearm(s) that are in your immediate possession.

It falls under caveat emptor. There are major ramifications of being transferred a stolen firearm or a firearm that's of interest in a crime. Chances are if it's of interest in a crime it's also been stolen.

The BOS is used to exclude me from any and all crimes associated with a firearm acquired in a private sale. If a seller has something I want and I question them then I'm going to just have a FFL on the transaction and record it on a 4473. Only a government employee who has access to NCIC can tell me if a firearm has a clean title or history. Until we have a way to do that for private sales, you're still going to have buyers like me who will insist on a BOS.

I don't like BATFE or the government in my business like any of us. However, if I'm engaging in a private sale or transfer I'm taking a risk. Even with a BOS and I'm excluded from any crimes involving a hot firearm, I'm still out my money that I paid for the firearm in the private sale unless I have some sort of information where I can pursue civil restitution to obtain a refund.

It's implied in a good faith transaction that I'm not receiving stolen merchandise. If it turns out that the firearm was impounded because it was stolen then I have to go back after the seller and get my pound of flesh out of them for selling me stolen merchandise. It doesn't matter if the seller knew if it was stolen or not. It's also on me to get my money back from the seller. Stolen firearms are pretty much like counterfeit currency. Whomever had the counterfeit bill at the time of discovery is not going to have it replaced with valid currency. No one is going to replace the firearm nor refund my money. It's on me to seek that restitution from the seller. That's another benefit of the BOS, to get your money back if it turns out they sold you a hot firearm.

The pendulum swings both ways.

That said, if I sense anything shady about a seller, I'm just going to take them to a friendly neighborhood FFL and handle the transaction that way. That will accomplish the same results as a BOS plus give me a trail to follow if it turns out later that the firearm is hot.