CCW under 21 but over 18

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by CFletch, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    As someone in this age gap, I have always been more than a little frustrated at the fact that I cannot get a CCW permit here in California. I know there are several states where those over 18 but under 21 can get a CCW (or equivilent) and I have always been interested at the arguments for and against it. Obviously I am for it, but I would love to hear what the rest of the community think about this bit of law.

    So, how do you feel about it?
     
  2. Joe Link

    Joe Link
    Out West
    Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    592
    I know it's been said before, but I'm not a fan of the fact that young people can go off to war but can't be trusted to responsibly drink or excercise all their rights. I don't believe in CCW laws anyhow (Arizona does it right).
     
    U201491 and Flopsweat like this.
  3. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    10
    I have mixed feelings. I agree that it's silly that you're old enough to be drafted, but not to own a gun. I do also understand (and no offense intended) that you are still developing socially and psychologically. Then there's the fact that you're already allowed to drive a car, which is statistically far more dangerous than a gun, so why not a CCW? I'd like to see responsible 18 year olds like you get a permit, but I worry about the gang-bangers wanna-bes and idiots. Of course, it's not like my age group doesn't have its share of dimwits. So should you have stricter requirements than adults? Not sure that mixes well with "shall not be infringed". I'm mostly in your court on this one, just a little hesitant. More discussion would probably help.
     
    U201491 likes this.
  4. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    The way I see it, the background check and other requirements (like an interview with the Sheriff, in my county at least) in CA pretty well weed out the totally incompetent. Several other states allow CCW under 21, and California's gang issues and proximity to the border ensure that criminals already have access to the guns they want anyway (at better prices to boot). It just seems like they chose an arbitrary age and put it on the books.
     
  5. Joe Link

    Joe Link
    Out West
    Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    592
    I know exactly how you feel about being hesitant. I feel this way on a lot of personal liberty issues. I'm sure it has something to do with the way we were brought up in this society.
     
  6. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well, I'm finding that the older I get the less tolerance I have for incursions into our fundamental rights. They've been steadily chipped away at for a long time. Now we do restrict certain activities by age, and it makes sense to do so, but we need to tread carefully. Our legislature has a record of doing a lot of harm in the name of doing good. So for me less is more. If you can't show that restricting a particular activity causes considerably less harm than leaving it alone, you're not getting my support.

    Fletch, if you can show that states with less restrictive CCW laws for your age group show no higher incidents of gun violence and firearm accidents (in your age group), that will go a long way for me. Might help make a convincing argument for your camp. You'd want to be able to site credible sources, of course. If interested, you might start with guncite.com and gunfacts.info. Have you found any organizations that share your cause? I know, by the time you get something like that organized, you'll probably be 21, but if it's the principle of the thing, maybe it's worth doing. Maybe check with the folks at concealedcampus.org and campuscarry.org to see how they got things going. Well it's a thought.
     
  7. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    I'll do some research and see if i can't get those statistics.
     
    U201491 likes this.
  8. Joe Link

    Joe Link
    Out West
    Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    592
    I'd be interested in seeing those statistics as well. I have a feeling they'll be in your favor, CFletch.
     
    U201491 likes this.
  9. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    Those statistics are seeming a mite difficult to find. I'm still looking, but it looks like this specific topic is not studied very often. Considering the statistics on permit-holders in general, and the fact that 18-20 permit holders are subject to the same restrictions and background requirements, I would assume that the statistics would be similar.

    I have found that Alabama, North Dakota, Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa (legal but rare), Maryland (legal but rare), Indiana, and Idaho (legal but rare) can issue to 18-20 year olds. In addition, Idaho allows OC without a permit at 18-20 and Alaska allows CC at 16-20 if you are hiking/camping/hunting/fishing. I found these tidbits scattered about all over the internet, mostly on forums for the relevant states. It seems that even the state FAQs for carry lack concrete info on this. There are also many state-level allowances for those on active duty in the military to CC under 21, as there should be.

    That several states allow CC at 18-20 (and 16-20 in Alaska) but info on the age group is lacking, it could be taken as evidence that it is not causing enough trouble to be worth studying in detail. This is only an observation and not necessarily true.

    I'll be doing some more research and trying to find more concrete info, but midterms are going on so I will be distracted for a bit.
     
    Joe Link likes this.
  10. YukonCornelius

    YukonCornelius
    Arizona
    New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    CFletch, I have tried to do research in these areas from the government sites. I do know for a fact they track this data, but do not allow public access to it (seems odd huh!). I have found this true for many government issues. My suggestion is if you have a pro-gun state rep or senator, write them and see what they can find for you. I have done that with some success here in Arizona.

    Good luck.
    Yukon
     
  11. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    I finally found some statistics!

    "Among the thirty-six shall-issue’ states—states where local authorities cannot require qualified applicants to “show a need” before the applicant is issued a concealed handgun license/concealed carry weapons permit—six states allow, without special provision, for any qualified person eighteen years or older to be issued a concealed handgun license. These states are Indiana, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, and South Dakota.
    “Based on the FBI/Department of Justice violent crime statistics for the year 2006, the crime rates for these seven states, when ranked with all fifty states and the District of Columbia, rank as follows:
    Indiana – 30
    Montana – 42
    South Dakota – 47
    New Hampshire – 48
    North Dakota – 50
    Maine – 51
    “Not only are Maine, North Dakota, New Hampshire, and South Dakota four of the five U.S. states with the lowest crime rates, Montana has the tenth lowest crime rate, and Indiana isn’t even in the top 50%. Clearly, these states’ lenient concealed handgun laws are not breeding generations of young violent offenders"

    Found here: http://concealedcampus.org/common-arguments/#18
     
  12. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    10
    Nice work Fletch! Have you contacted any of the campus carry organizations? You may be able to share data.
     
  13. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    I've looked into it but there seems to be very little activity in CA in that regard, likely due to the insanity of the laws here. Most organizations are working to get victories elsewhere, which is probably wise. I believe it will take a few more legal victories before CCW 18-20 has a chance here.

    Of course, I'm too stubborn to give up and wait so I'll keep working on it. I'm always winning small victories by educating my peers, especially fellow students, about firearms and rights.
     
  14. Joe Link

    Joe Link
    Out West
    Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    592
    Are there many areas of California where an average citizen even over 21 has a decent chance of getting a permit?
     
  15. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    10
    I ran across this today: http://concealedcampus.org/2012/03/colorado-supreme-court-affirms-campus-carry/
    Lots of data relevant to folks in your age group carrying here: http://concealedcampus.org/common-arguments/

    Sorry for the repeated student carry theme in my posts - I know that's not exactly your cause - I just happened to spot this, read a little deeper, and saw some data that I thought would help. Tanjential, but possibly useful.
     
  16. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    10
    It was my experience that location was everything. Most of the big cities made it all but impossible unless you were connected (celebrity, wealthy, related to a powerful politician, etc.), but in some of the rural areas it was effectively "shall issue". In my county the "average Joe" didn't stand a chance. If Fletch lives in a county with an open-minded Sheriff, he may have a real chance - the age issue not withstanding.
     
  17. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    I live in El Dorado County, and the Sheriff essentially ran on the promise that he'd give out ccw permits to anyone who was legally eligible. So far he has been truthful to that so I'm sure I won't have any issues getting a permit here when I'm 21. I'm not sure about other areas. I know the big cities are pretty against permits but most of the rural areas, especially to the north, give them out without a fuss.
     
  18. Joe Link

    Joe Link
    Out West
    Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    592
    That's awesome! Is it possible for a resident of a county other than El Dorado to go up there and get a permit? Does California law allow cities to restrict or choose not to honor permits?
     
  19. CFletch

    CFletch
    California
    Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    20
    Counties recognize each other's permits, but you must get the permit from the county you reside in.
     

Share This Page