Advice on Firearms wanted.

[Doug1943]

Trump has said repeatedly that he will not let those who abhor Individual Liberty destroy our Second Amendment. I see him vetoing any ban and sending the bill back to the House and Senate-- and let them batsards vote to deny our Liberty. Let those cowards put their names on a vote to deny what The Framers from Summer 1787 to December 1791 asked of the People. If they deny the Liberty endowed to us by God, they have signed their own warrants for their removal from Congress.

I'm no scholar of the Constitution, but I believe it's the Seventh Amendment that states all Amendments are of equal force and equal value regardless of enumeration, and that to negate or diminish even one negates and diminishes them all. So to diminish the Second also diminishes the First, Fourth, Fifth and any others the Criminal Left loves so much. Actually, the Criminal Left hates the Constitution because it limits the power of the federal government. Tyrants have no use for limits on their power; this is why we see so many laws come out of the Chambers that even sound unconstitutional to those who are least interested in what Washington passes-down to the People.

We who love our Freedom must keep the Party of Lincoln in power in the Senate, lest the Criminal Left wrest it from us and begin adding more Justices to the Supreme Court. Imagine the Liberty we have known for so long surviving when fourteen out of nineteen Supreme Court Justices are so far Left that no one person we can think of today would come close. Imagine Himmlery Rotten Klantoon on the Court. Imagine Sick Willy Klantoon on the Court. Imagine Lani Guinere on the Court. Imagine Chucky Bullschumer on the Court. Imagine Kenyabama on the Court. Might as well have the High Command of the Third Reich on the Court. The Criminal Left seeks the destruction of this nation and every Individual Liberty so enumerated in the Constitution. About that there can be no argument. The 2020 election may very well be the first day of the beginning of the end of this nation. I am forever so happy I have no kids who would have to live in a nation ruled by the insanity of liberalism...

Here's the problem.

They're the majority and they are only going to grow.

We have lived in a world in which a third of people were liberals, a third conservatives, and a third in the middle. And so elections swung back and forth -- FDR/Eisenhower/JFK-LBJ/Nixon/Carter/Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama ... changes that the liberals wanted, that weren't crazy, eventually got adopted and conservatives either approved after a while or just learned to live with them.

But things have changed. I'm actually more of an FDR/JFK liberal than I am a Reagan/Bush conservative. But ... the Left and the Democrats have gone nuts, effectively. [I was born when FDR was president so I've seen them all. All of my family and relatives were Democrats -- this was Texas -- I don't think we even ever saw a live Republican except on TV. Now all my family are Republicans, but we didn't really change our basic beliefs. ]

You know what the difference is between JFK liberalism and today's liberalism?

In 1960 (in the South, where I'm from), liberals fought to let Blacks and whites use the same bathrooms.
Now, liberals fight to let boys and girls use the same bathroom.

And they control the universities, which train the teachers and journalists and lawyers and media people and the people who run the big corporations ... so every year, we move towards ... I can't call it 'socialism', it's something even worse.

Anyway, Trump will be the last Republican President. We've got to start thinking outside the box ... way outside the box ... for what to do when we become the permanent, and shrinking, minority.

 

[MadDuner]

The entire political spectrum has slid into the ditch to the left. What used to be called "centrist" is now called "right-wing extremist". Once they go down the socialism "path", the country will reach the tipping point of more leaches than producers. I believe this will spark the SHTF situation that millions have tried to prepare for, and that others have continued to scoff at.

The leftists in government fear it could happen, and have worked tirelessly to try and disarm the populace before it gets here. They will have no success in that endeavor. They continue to push towards the thing they know will cause the SHTF - but refuse to stop. Once they get what they think they want - they will also find the "unintended consequences" they always refuse to consider.

When it happens, they will claim it was all somebody else's fault. The end result will still be tragic for millions of Americans - regardless of political leanings.

The ladies bridge club had better start gearing up now....

 

[RetiredArmy]

The entire political spectrum has slid into the ditch to the left. What used to be called "centrist" is now called "right-wing extremist". Once they go down the socialism "path", the country will reach the tipping point of more leaches than producers. I believe this will spark the SHTF situation that millions have tried to prepare for, and that others have continued to scoff at.

The leftists in government fear it could happen, and have worked tirelessly to try and disarm the populace before it gets here. They will have no success in that endeavor. They continue to push towards the thing they know will cause the SHTF - but refuse to stop. Once they get what they think they want - they will also find the "unintended consequences" they always refuse to consider.

When it happens, they will claim it was all somebody else's fault. The end result will still be tragic for millions of Americans - regardless of political leanings.

The ladies bridge club had better start gearing up now....

I couldn't agree more read where this country was in the 1850's! Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it!

 

[Doug1943]

The entire political spectrum has slid into the ditch to the left. What used to be called "centrist" is now called "right-wing extremist". Once they go down the socialism "path", the country will reach the tipping point of more leaches than producers. I believe this will spark the SHTF situation that millions have tried to prepare for, and that others have continued to scoff at.

The leftists in government fear it could happen, and have worked tirelessly to try and disarm the populace before it gets here. They will have no success in that endeavor. They continue to push towards the thing they know will cause the SHTF - but refuse to stop. Once they get what they think they want - they will also find the "unintended consequences" they always refuse to consider.

When it happens, they will claim it was all somebody else's fault. The end result will still be tragic for millions of Americans - regardless of political leanings.

The ladies bridge club had better start gearing up now....

My views exactly.
But ... millions of atomized, scattered individuals and groups will not be a match for a national government.
They will be isolated and starved out, picked off one-by-one.
We must start thinking about a national, long-term strategy to prevent the tragedy that is approaching. I don't mean anything illegal or violent ... I mean a political strategy to salvage the parts of America that are not yet infected.

 

[Doug1943]

Also: I know it's the conventional word, 'the Left', but I don't think of it as 'the Left' as we used to know it.
That Left was for unions, Social Security, Black rights, tariffs. We could argue about these things, adopt some, maybe back out if
they didn't work out too well. Reagan de-regulated some industry, we passed a Welfare reform law under Clinton.

The new 'Left' if we want to call it that is attacking at the level of the culture. Here's the difference:
In 1960, where I live (I'm a Southerner and we had racial segregation of public facilities), liberals fought so that Black and white could use the same bathrooms.
Now, they fight so that boys and girls can use the same bathrooms.

 

[RetiredArmy]

My views exactly.
But ... millions of atomized, scattered individuals and groups will not be a match for a national government.
They will be isolated and starved out, picked off one-by-one.
We must start thinking about a national, long-term strategy to prevent the tragedy that is approaching. I don't mean anything illegal or violent ... I mean a political strategy to salvage the parts of America that are not yet infected.

Look at the Map of Liberal and Conservative by counties and you will see it is the Left that is in isolated pockets

 

[MadDuner]

The "new, modern, progressive, socialist" leftists that are entrenched in our government and learning institutions are a huge part of the problem, along with the co-conspirators in media. The sheeple who vote for the most free stuff are the other big part of the equation. Continuing to import people who are completely dependent upon that free stuff - are guaranteed to continue voting for whoever promises to keep it coming.

How do we fix that legally?

 

[MadDuner]

Also: I know it's the conventional word, 'the Left', but I don't think of it as 'the Left' as we used to know it.
That Left was for unions, Social Security, Black rights, tariffs. We could argue about these things, adopt some, maybe back out if
they didn't work out too well. Reagan de-regulated some industry, we passed a Welfare reform law under Clinton.

The new 'Left' if we want to call it that is attacking at the level of the culture. Here's the difference:
In 1960, where I live (I'm a Southerner and we had racial segregation of public facilities), liberals fought so that Black and white could use the same bathrooms.
Now, they fight so that boys and girls can use the same bathrooms.

I think you are being defensive of the term "left" because the communist party has taken over the democrat party and you feel somewhat attached to what they used to be. This is no longer your dad's Democrat party.

 

[Doug1943]

I think you are being defensive of the term "left" because the communist party has taken over the democrat party and you feel somewhat attached to what they used to be. This is no longer your dad's Democrat party.

You bet. I was startled a couple of months ago to find that an old comrade (we were both in a Far Left group out in LA fifty years ago) is now the head of the Communist Party -- openly -- in Houston, and ... also a Democratic Party Precinct Chairman. In Texas!!!

Actually, the CPUSA is almost dead. And they're a bunch of socially-conservative old fuddie-duddies anyway. The organized socialist group inside the Democratic Party is the Democratic Socialists of America, which have experienced enormous growth recently. But it's not that they have much power there as yet. What has really taken over the Democratic Party is the new ideology that I don't have a name for .... Subversive Perversion is too long ... but which is rapidly gripping their minds. And more importantly, has gripped the minds of America's 'intelligentsia'.

 

[Doug1943]

The "new, modern, progressive, socialist" leftists that are entrenched in our government and learning institutions are a huge part of the problem, along with the co-conspirators in media. The sheeple who vote for the most free stuff are the other big part of the equation. Continuing to import people who are completely dependent upon that free stuff - are guaranteed to continue voting for whoever promises to keep it coming.

How do we fix that legally?

I hesitate to say it ... because I know it will sound mad. We have to do what the Norweigians and the Swedes did a century ago, what the Czechs and Slovaks did more recently, and what Scotland will do soon.
An amicable, no-fault divorce.
Donald Trump will be the last Republican President, maybe a one-term one. The demographics are against us, we must not kid ourselves.

 

[Doug1943]

Look at the Map of Liberal and Conservative by counties and you will see it is the Left that is in isolated pockets

I've been studying that map, actually. Trying to work out where the new borders will be. But ... if it's not done legally and peacefully, it probably won't be done at all. And the question is one of numbers. They have the numbers and it will get worse.

They really ought to be glad to see our backs, when you think about it. We're all deplorable white supremacists and neo-Nazis, and our states take in more Federal money than they pay out in Taxes. Even if we are a minority within the US (which we will be), we can make a lot of trouble, resist things, be recalcitrant and obstructionist. Without us, they can go straight ahead to building their socialist utopia ...all that money they sent to the Red States can go to increased welfare payments, they can outlaw guns and Hate Thought altogether, turn their whole new Republic into a single giant Sancutary Country ... what's not to like? I think once this idea gets some publicity, they'll be demanding we leave.

 

[nvshooter]

Donald Trump will be the last Republican President, maybe a one-term one. The demographics are against us; we must not kid ourselves.

Heard he had no chance to win in 2016, either. Don't surrender so easily. All these polls so far out are meaningless. They're just noise created by the Criminal Left Media to generate hype for the Tyranny-crat can't-i-dates. The brain-damaged media believes themselves to be part of the story. I have no use for such a collection of idiots. I get my news from Rush, Sean, Tucker, Laura, Mark and Ben. I have not watched the nightly TV news on the alphabet-soup outlets for going on thirty years. I know what they're presenting is skewed, slanted and biased toward having Americans believe everything is going to helsinki and the only way to salvation is bigger and bigger government, combined with lesser and lesser Freedom. I have no use for the fetid bilgewater issuing forth from their diseased pieholes. The Criminal Left Media can take their audible sewage and shove it up their bungholes...

 

[RetiredArmy]

I've been studying that map, actually. Trying to work out where the new borders will be. But ... if it's not done legally and peacefully, it probably won't be done at all. And the question is one of numbers. They have the numbers and it will get worse.

They really ought to be glad to see our backs, when you think about it. We're all deplorable white supremacists and neo-Nazis, and our states take in more Federal money than they pay out in Taxes. Even if we are a minority within the US (which we will be), we can make a lot of trouble, resist things, be recalcitrant and obstructionist. Without us, they can go straight ahead to building their socialist utopia ...all that money they sent to the Red States can go to increased welfare payments, they can outlaw guns and Hate Thought altogether, turn their whole new Republic into a single giant Sancutary Country ... what's not to like? I think once this idea gets some publicity, they'll be demanding we leave.

They actually do not have the numbers, They just would have you believe that they do. The Left is about 34% of the total population Conservatives about 29% with the remainder being middle of the road so no they do not have the numbers. Second point they are all in Isolated Clusters that are solely consumer orentated to geared to unlimited production of food and fuel and very easy to disrupt their supplies. Need to Think strategic options is this devolves into Civil War. Also the Military is not a rubber stamp if it comes down to firing on Citizens, remember most of them lean to the right. So while I hope and pray the rhetoric tones down and we can avoid a nasty civil insurrection, I don't feel we will be on the short end of things. Remember during the Revolutionary War of Independence less than a third were involved the cause for independence. it is far from a lost cause (at least by Histories light)

 

[ZoidMeister]

Trump has said repeatedly that he will not let those who abhor Individual Liberty destroy our Second Amendment. I see him vetoing any ban and sending the bill back to the House and Senate-- and let them batsards vote to deny our Liberty. Let those cowards put their names on a vote to deny what The Framers from Summer 1787 to December 1791 asked of the People. If they deny the Liberty endowed to us by God, they have signed their own warrants for their removal from Congress.

I'm no scholar of the Constitution, but I believe it's the Seventh Amendment that states all Amendments are of equal force and equal value regardless of enumeration, and that to negate or diminish even one negates and diminishes them all. So to diminish the Second also diminishes the First, Fourth, Fifth and any others the Criminal Left loves so much. Actually, the Criminal Left hates the Constitution because it limits the power of the federal government. Tyrants have no use for limits on their power; this is why we see so many laws come out of the Chambers that even sound unconstitutional to those who are least interested in what Washington passes-down to the People.

We who love our Freedom must keep the Party of Lincoln in power in the Senate, lest the Criminal Left wrest it from us and begin adding more Justices to the Supreme Court. Imagine the Liberty we have known for so long surviving when fourteen out of nineteen Supreme Court Justices are so far Left that no one person we can think of today would come close. Imagine Himmlery Rotten Klantoon on the Court. Imagine Sick Willy Klantoon on the Court. Imagine Lani Guinere on the Court. Imagine Chucky Bullschumer on the Court. Imagine Kenyabama on the Court. Might as well have the High Command of the Third Reich on the Court. The Criminal Left seeks the destruction of this nation and every Individual Liberty so enumerated in the Constitution. About that there can be no argument. The 2020 election may very well be the first day of the beginning of the end of this nation. I am forever so happy I have no kids who would have to live in a nation ruled by the insanity of liberalism...

 

[nvshooter]

This has become one hellsinki of a thread. Great reading!

 

[Doug1943]

They actually do not have the numbers, They just would have you believe that they do. The Left is about 34% of the total population Conservatives about 29% with the remainder being middle of the road so no they do not have the numbers. Second point they are all in Isolated Clusters that are solely consumer orentated to geared to unlimited production of food and fuel and very easy to disrupt their supplies. Need to Think strategic options is this devolves into Civil War. Also the Military is not a rubber stamp if it comes down to firing on Citizens, remember most of them lean to the right. So while I hope and pray the rhetoric tones down and we can avoid a nasty civil insurrection, I don't feel we will be on the short end of things. Remember during the Revolutionary War of Independence less than a third were involved the cause for independence. it is far from a lost cause (at least by Histories light)

You are right.

If those wanting independence played their cards right, they could go a long long way to depriving the would-be tyrants of support. One key thing would be the character of the 'New America' they wanted to establish, or rather, its presentation: it would be deadly for it to be seen as an angry old white man's republic, racially 'pure' and where all of the causes dear to the heart of a part of the Right would be immediately implemented: school prayer, homosexuality illegal, abortion punished by death, etc.

I would urge the people establishing the 'New Republic' to simply make it as much as possible like the America of Ronald Reagan -- absolutely multi-racial, absolutely open to all loyal Americans of whatever political or religious persuasion.

And -- we were originally a Federation. And so should a 'New America' be -- with its states or whatever we called its subordinate units given a LOT of leeway in determining their own policies.

The American military is 30% non-white, its officer corps 20%. That alone, as a pragmatic consideration, should be enough to convince those wanting a restored American Republic that it cannot be a 'white man's country'. And the white supremacists should be repelled vigorously -- they are poison. I was very pleased to see the Oath Keepers' leader spell this out the other day. (He seems like a pretty sharp guy.)

Napoleon said that in war, the moral is to the material as three to one. In any situation moving towards social disorder, making 'independence' a possibility by a route other than a free vote (following an amendment to the Constitution) it is critical to be the ones who are seen to be wanting a peaceful solution and to be acting legally. We would have to do as Stimson reported FDR saying he wanted to do with the Japanese -- make them fire the first shot.

And you are right about the 1/3 proportion -- not just in the American Revolution either, but in practically all such situations, it's a determined minority who know what they want, who can bring the majority along with them, or at least convince it not to actively oppose.

The real 'war' is a political one. Although old Bismarck was right, that in the end, all the important questions are settled not by votes but by blood and iron, it's still the case that in the modern world, what the great majority believes is an actual material factor. Public support, or lack of opposition, is more precious than rubies.

I thought Mr Trump missed a chance with respect to Anti-Fa. This heap of human garbage is not 'worthy' of the name terrorist and he won't convince anyone that they are a parallel to Al Queda, or even to the Weathermen. What he should have done is to call for a national day of unity -- perhaps memorial day -- with rallies in every area, speakers invited from both parties (and Greens and Libertarians), all races represented, lots of veterans, flags everywhere, a read-out of the names of this year's fallen policemen -- pro-military, pro-police, and pro-America. Our side could emphasize the importance of free speech, toleration of views different from one's own, and support for liberty of conscience. The Left-Democrats could either embrace it and alienate their hard Left and PC base, or reject it and alienate Mr and Mrs America. That's how to wage political warfare.

Those kinds of political maneuvers would put us on the high ground, should we ever have to wage politics by von Kriege's "other means".

 

[Doug1943]

View attachment 5349

There is precedent of course. Roosevelt threatened to pack the Supreme Court if it didn't stop ruling his measures unconstitutional, and it worked ... they changed their voting almost immediately. (If you want a real nightmare -- Bernadine Dohrn, co-head of the Weathermen, is a professor of Law. (Of course, appointing her to the Supreme Court as about as likely as, say, schools letting boys use the girls' bathroom if they say they are girls, or the San Francisco Board of Education painting over a mural with George Washington on it .... wait ....)

You will not believe this, but ... my Sunday School teacher in Houston in the early 60s, in the Unitarian Church, was an admirer of the Soviet Union. He was also head of the ACLU in Houston. I learned many years later, after he had died, that he had been elected (appointed?) to the First Court of Appeals in Houston. Not a bad man, I have to say, but naive in the extreme. I wonder what the background and beliefs are of the members of that notorious Ninth Circuit Court in California.

I don't believe those are authentic quotes by the way, even if it's what they really think. These people are too smart to get caught saying things like that. Sometimes you need to swallow your impulse to just say what you think .... are you listening Mr Trump???

 

[Doug1943]

Heard he had no chance to win in 2016, either. Don't surrender so easily. All these polls so far out are meaningless. They're just noise created by the Criminal Left Media to generate hype for the Tyranny-crat can't-i-dates. The brain-damaged media believes themselves to be part of the story. I have no use for such a collection of idiots. I get my news from Rush, Sean, Tucker, Laura, Mark and Ben. I have not watched the nightly TV news on the alphabet-soup outlets for going on thirty years. I know what they're presenting is skewed, slanted and biased toward having Americans believe everything is going to helsinki and the only way to salvation is bigger and bigger government, combined with lesser and lesser Freedom. I have no use for the fetid bilgewater issuing forth from their diseased pieholes. The Criminal Left Media can take their audible sewage and shove it up their bungholes...

Remember that Trump won only because of the Electoral College and the accident of the way the conservative vote was distributed. Plus some people on the Left -- believe this or not -- were not happy with Hillary, who they believed was not left wing enough ... and they believed Trump didn't have a chance anyway. Someone -- the liberals blame the Russians but it could have been anyone -- targetted Blacks on social media with ads quoting things supporting law and order and against easy Welfare that Bill had said. You can be absolutely guaranteed that every single one of those people, plus their long-dead grandmother, will be voting next year. A lot of their side never bother to register, or if registered, don't vote. They will be carried bodily to the polls.

Plus ... events, events, events... the economy could tank. We could get unlucky in one of our many overseas military entanglements, in such a way that the President is discredited.

I don't mean to demoralize anyone. We might luck out.

And I know that our side seems like the commonsense side, the tolerant side. They demand X liberation and we go along. Then they demand Y liberation and we go along. Then they demand Z liberation and we go along. Then they say if you don't bake a cake for Z liberation, we'll bankrupt you with fines. We say, just leave us alone. They say, not on your nellie. You will Believe, or pretend to, or else. We think, surely Mr and Mrs Average American won't go along with this. But Mr and Mrs Average American hasn't been doing too well economically. Now .. who do they blame for that? And who says they can fix it?

Most of what they do, we can't even resist. The movies, the video games, the music, contain images from Hell, glorifying the most extreme and violent kinds of perversions. The craziest sort of behavior has been normalized. IAll the old traditions, the certainties of centuries, have been laughed at and thrown into the garbage can. Is it any wonder that a a tiny minority of kids go nuts and grab a gun and act out? After a riot and mass looting, the Left always talk about 'Root Causes', by which they mean more welfare. Why don't they look at the 'Root Causes' of insane behavior, in the culture that they have made insane?

Anyway, I think we need a Plan B. At least to start a calm, sober conversation about a Plan B.

 

[WillyB]

. what would be the best weapon to buy?

There are only two possible choices for an inexpensive weapon and ammunition: either an AK-47 or an AR-15.
The little old ladies that are supposed to be the end-users would probably, as any good American, go for the "made in the USA" weapon, so the best weapon is an AR-15.

Given the users' profile, I would suggest as light an AR-15 as possible, with a simple red dot sight.

As many have mentioned in that thread, one can find many decent ARs for under $500 and SIG is having a sale of its Romeo-5 red dots for about $100.
About weight and size, I would suggest an AR-15 pistol with a ±12.5 barrel. That barrel length is enough to give a good "push" to the .223 ammo, while making the rifle easier to handle and faster to point into a target. Also, in my mind an important consideration, a shorter barrel makes much more noise and flames and that would also help deter the bad guys.

That would be my vote for your scenario.

Me? I am building a 8.5" .300 BLK "piston" AR-15 pistol, but my scenario is not the same as yours.

Now if one or two of these ladies is a badass shooter like Ms. Annie Oakley or Lyudmila "Lady Death" Pavlichenko, you might want to make an exception and get her a nice Remington 700 in .308!

 

[Doug1943]

There are only two possible choices for an inexpensive weapon and ammunition: either an AK-47 or an AR-15.
The little old ladies that are supposed to be the end-users would probably, as any good American, go for the "made in the USA" weapon, so the best weapon is an AR-15.

Given the users' profile, I would suggest as light an AR-15 as possible, with a simple red dot sight.

As many have mentioned in that thread, one can find many decent ARs for under $500 and SIG is having a sale of its Romeo-5 red dots for about $100.
About weight and size, I would suggest an AR-15 pistol with a ±12.5 barrel. That barrel length is enough to give a good "push" to the .223 ammo, while making the rifle easier to handle and faster to point into a target. Also, in my mind an important consideration, a shorter barrel makes much more noise and flames and that would also help deter the bad guys.

That would be my vote for your scenario.

Me? I am building a 8.5" .300 BLK "piston" AR-15 pistol, but my scenario is not the same as yours.

Now if one or two of these ladies is a badass shooter like Ms. Annie Oakley or Lyudmila "Lady Death" Pavlichenko, you might want to make an exception and get her a nice Remington 700 in .308!

Thank you very much for this extended reply .... I had never heard of an AR15 'pistol'. Very useful.
My hypothetical group is likely to be mixed-sex -- the one occasion I would be in favor of females fighting alongside males -- so there would, hopefully, be a few hunters with rifles with scopes for reaching out and touching someone at 500 meters.

The increased flames and noise might be a disadvantage ... I don't actually know ... I was told by someone that the AR15 was better for the Ladies Thursday Morning Bridge Club because it was not as loud as a larger-calibre weapon, but I don't know whether this is actually the case. Fifty years ago when I went from BCT (M14s) to infantry school, (M16s), I don't recall a difference in the noise, just that the sergeants didn't bother making you hold the damned thing out in front of you with extended arms as a punishment, because it was so light.

And, AOC to the contrary, the fact that the AR15 is American-made seems to be a deal-closer.