Advice on Firearms wanted.

[Ura-Ki]

Thank you for this. I suspect that the Ladies' Bridge Club won't care about most of these things, but that a lot of men will.
Question: do all the variants of the AR have exchangeable magazines? (I assume any cartridge that can be fired from one, can be fired from all .. am I right?)

Both Yes, and No! Be careful here, many an AR owner has switched/built a different caliber other then .223/5.56mm, so you need to watch carefully! A .300 B.O. all the way up to a .50 Beowulf is possable within the basic architecture of the AR!
Many are actually quite good, especially the .300 B.O. amd the 6.5 Grendel!
Thereis also the AR-10 which looks similar to a casual eye, but is a completly different animal, a scaled up version that can take the .308 Winchester and the .308 as a parent case to all sorts of other flavors, and even the Noreen AR which will take "Standard Rifle length" .30/06 case lengths to include .300 and .338 Winchester magnum! I would be all over one that could take .404 Jeffries, on up to the .500!

 

[Doug1943]

Dear Lord ... apparently one can write a PhD on all this stuff.
When I last fired an AR15, at my nephew's in Idaho, I had picked up several boxes of
steel cartridge Russian-made ammo, ugly but nice and cheap. It all worked. Any thoughts on
that?

 

[Ura-Ki]

IF it goes bang and is Minute of Bad Guy accurate, that's all that really matters!

 

[Doug1943]

Okay, can't argue with that. But is it good for the environment? Doesn't all that hot gas being expelled from the barrel contribute to Global Warming???
Perhaps they will make a carbon-neutral cartridge!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Are you really that concerned about it?

 

[Doug1943]

Are you really that concerned about it?

Joking!

 

[spookshack]

Ruger 10/22, a crate full of factory 10rd mags, and a couple pallets of .22 ammo.....

 

[Doug1943]

Ruger 10/22, a crate full of factory 10rd mags, and a couple pallets of .22 ammo.....

Really? For neighborhood defense against a mob of coked-up reparations-seekers?

On what grounds? The only argument I can see that might make sense is that the Ladies' Bridge Club might be more likely to
use a .22 rather than a larger cartridge with more recoil and noise, plus the ammo is a lot cheaper so you can have effectively unlimited
practice. (I remember reading about a weapon that is a .38 revolver frame but with a .22 chamber and barrell, so that trainee policemen
can train on the shooting range without bankrupting the department training budget.

And I suppose in an urban or semi-urban setting you don't want rounds that carry a thousand meters and remain lethal.

Any other reasons for preferring .22 over .223/5.56?

 

[OggieO]

If I was going to do a stand off with a mob, even at longer distances, I would opt for a rifle that is legendary for reliability and running even when dirty. That would be an AK-47. If child soldiers can run them, so can a housewife. If recoil is an issue, then go with the AK-74. Either way ammunition is cheap and available in 700 to 10000 round, easy to store spam cans.

 

[Doug1943]

If I was going to do a stand off with a mob, even at longer distances, I would opt for a rifle that is legendary for reliability and running even when dirty. That would be an AK-47. If child soldiers can run them, so can a housewife. If recoil is an issue, then go with the AK-74. Either way ammunition is cheap and available in 700 to 10000 round, easy to store spam cans.

I think the key thing here is not the abstract 'best', but the practical 'best'. Of not letting the
best be the enemy of the good, or the good-enough.

That is, can I buy, in bulk, AKs (of either calibre) at roughly the same price (including ammo) as I can ARs.

And given that some of my neighbors already own an AR, and few an AK, and you want
inter-operability or ammo-sharing if at all possible ... is the advantage of the AK great enough
to make it the choice? I take your point about the ruggedness of the AK (or the AK47 anyway, which
as you say was legendary, especially when the original M16 was seizing up in the middle of firefights
and they'd find dead Marines with the damned things disassembled beside their bodies),
but in a neighborhood defense situation, and with today's ARs, how critical is that?

We're talking Ladies' Bridge Club here (as the extreme case). This doesn't preclude professionals or semi-professionals
owning anything they'd like. My ideal neighborhood defense group has at least one guy with a Barrett M82
for giving special attention to mob leaders standing a few meters behind their pals or sitting in cars.

But for your friendly neighborhood weapon ... won't the popular AR do the job?

 

[philtbn]

Suppose a whole neighborhood -- say, a hundred people -- wanted to bulk-buy a weapon for neighborhood defense. (Not just individual home defense.)

Suppose they wanted to be ready for sustained defense against an attacking mob, which included well-armed individuals.

Now ... what would be the best weapon to bulk-purchase? Keeping in mind that a lot of these folks are not particularly interested
in weapons. You might get them to go to the firing range two or three times, or out into the desert for a practice session, but many
of them will not be gun enthusiasts. Not only that, some of them will be of slight build, not happy with heavy recoil, or really loud
discharges. You're not going to make them into marksmen.

From the point of view of overall utility in such a situation -- (and remember that money is a factor -- assume that each person will spend
up to 2000 dollars but no more).... what would be the best weapon to buy?

We're not talking about what YOU would want. It's not a question of which cartridge can penetrate cover at 750 meters, which weapon is
can be fitted with an exotic sight, etc. In other words, don't let the best be the enemy of the good.

We're talking about something a housewife can aim at some bad guys 250 meters away and get
off enough rounds to walk the bullets up into them, and then do a quick magazine change. And not
something that will be carried and used daily for 18 months in sustained combat. Not a sniper's weapon.

About fifty years ago I got to shoot several thousand rounds out of the M16, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
Recently I got to shoot my nephew's AR15. It seems to me that a cheap version of this weapon (I understand
that there are several variants, some better than others), plus a dozen magazines and a thousand rounds
of cheap Russian ammunition [and maybe a flak vest but that's another question] would be adequate for discouraging
a mob of reparation-seekers, if in the hands of a couple of dozen people being directed by someone who's been in
similar situations.

However, I don't know a lot about guns in general, or their availability in the US today (I live abroad).

So I'm asking advice from anyone who has an informed opinion. (I repeat -- not what YOU would own, but
what the Ladies' Bridge Club should own.)

I like everything about your list of possibles, inexpensive AR (most moderate price AR Rifles are MORE than adequate for "crowd control"), vest, water is a must, certainly magazines and ammunition, but PLEASE, Mother of God, don't encourage new shooters to feed their weapons the cheap steel junk.
2 reasons: one, you can get bulk priced brass cased ammunition for nearly the same price, so why get steel, and
Two- the steel ammunition is very hard on components such as extractors, feed ramps, chamber dimensions, and on top of that, it is exceedingly DIRTY ammo. Two or three mags and your firearm just may stop working altogether.
I've seen it. Friends don't let friends shoot junk ammunition.
ESPECIALLY since the newest shooters are not highly trained in clearance drills...

 

[Belevolk]

You want a weapon that the bridge club can use, reasonably scary thought. I think your limited to shotguns, everything else you need practice with and some of them a fair amount.
You have a choice of gauges and then another choice of pellets. Not a long distance weapon but I enterpeted your words as urban warfare. Slugs work out to 70 yards as that is how I shot deer in Iowa when I was young. Then maybe some rifles for longer distance targets for the few that can handle them.

 

[RetiredArmy]

Since you seem to want to arm against an orgaized attack by what you wrote. There are limited options in that situation. Being Retired US Army and having used them for years I lean toward the AR solution(Go with at least 18" barrels for better ballistics) as bulk buying them would be the cheapest option of any of the Semi Auto ones mentioned. Any weapon requires practice and at minimum needs to be Zeroed to the individual using it! A mix of AR's and pump shotguns with lots of Ammo! go with larger bullets (60grain plus for AR's and Buckshot in the shotguns. But AGAIN individuals need to train on their weapons to have any chance in a firefight! Just the way it works

 

[nvshooter]

I didn't even know there were 30-round magazines available. In Vietnam if you put all 20 rounds in your magazine, it sometimes wouldn't feed. So you only put in 18. Or so I was told. Any truth to this?

There are 40-round magazines, 60-round drums and 100-round magazines with 50-round drums on either side of the rifle that feed into a central opening that brings the shells into battery. The reported failures to feed in Vietnam were very likely the result of the feed lips being buggered. Magazines were aluminum in those days; the majority are polymer today. Polymers will not take a bend and keep it as will aluminum magazines. It also takes a lot of energy to actually break a polymer magazine. The best magazines are made by MagPul. No other maker's products come close. According to me, that is...

 

[Doug1943]

I like everything about your list of possibles, inexpensive AR (most moderate price AR Rifles are MORE than adequate for "crowd control"), vest, water is a must, certainly magazines and ammunition, but PLEASE, Mother of God, don't encourage new shooters to feed their weapons the cheap steel junk.
2 reasons: one, you can get bulk priced brass cased ammunition for nearly the same price, so why get steel, and
Two- the steel ammunition is very hard on components such as extractors, feed ramps, chamber dimensions, and on top of that, it is exceedingly DIRTY ammo. Two or three mags and your firearm just may stop working altogether.
I've seen it. Friends don't let friends shoot junk ammunition.
ESPECIALLY since the newest shooters are not highly trained in clearance drills...

Just the kind of information I'm looking for. Thanks very much!

 

[Doug1943]

Since you seem to want to arm against an orgaized attack by what you wrote. There are limited options in that situation. Being Retired US Army and having used them for years I lean toward the AR solution(Go with at least 18" barrels for better ballistics) as bulk buying them would be the cheapest option of any of the Semi Auto ones mentioned. Any weapon requires practice and at minimum needs to be Zeroed to the individual using it! A mix of AR's and pump shotguns with lots of Ammo! go with larger bullets (60grain plus for AR's and Buckshot in the shotguns. But AGAIN individuals need to train on their weapons to have any chance in a firefight! Just the way it works

Thank you very much. Very practical information.
Given your professional background, | have another question.
I know I should do a websearch on this, and I will, but you may
have some useful pointers that I can't quickly find via Google.
If someone wanted to read two or three books or manuals
on small-unit tactics, where should he start? I'm talking about
simple stuff -- which may be obsolete now, since I encountered
these ideas fifty years ago. Things like how to walk your bullets
into the target, because even if they miss they make the other
guy duck, whereas rounds going overhead don't; how to make a
firing card for night use if you've got an automatic weapon on
a tripod; follow-my-tracer; fire and maneuver; radio discipline;
I would be especially interested in things written since Iraq,
i.e. urban warfare, not open ground warfare. I'll do a websearch
but I'd like the opinion of a pro. I would like to read the sort of
sort of thing a platoon leader would need to know, not just
the ordinary 11B10 fellow. And then maybe a level up... I
remember that the Army used to have Field Manuals, but I
don't know if these are accessible or even exist any more.
Thanks in advance!

 

[Doug1943]

You want a weapon that the bridge club can use, reasonably scary thought. I think your limited to shotguns, everything else you need practice with and some of them a fair amount.
You have a choice of gauges and then another choice of pellets. Not a long distance weapon but I enterpeted your words as urban warfare. Slugs work out to 70 yards as that is how I shot deer in Iowa when I was young. Then maybe some rifles for longer distance targets for the few that can handle them.

Ok, thanks. There are Bridge Clubs and then there are Bridge Clubs. I'm really thinking about, what would an America look like, which re-instituted the
old colonial militia system, informally perhaps, and keeping in mind that nowadays we cannot exclude the ladies. In 1776 you had a smoothbore
musket ... what would a neighborhood or town militia have today, in terms of what the average soldier would have? I realize that a genuine militia
today, to be the equivalent to a militia then, would have to have indirect fire weapons, automatic weapons, etc etc.. but leaving that aside, what
personal weapon? I take your point about not having fifty people blazing away with rounds that carry a thousand meters and are still lethal ... that would be a problem, and of course if you don't practice a bit you're likely to get something on target firing a load of pellets. Thanks again for your opinions, which are obviously informed.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Our Constitution included this very concept in it's writings by our founding fathers, The Civilian Militia!
The concept was to have all "Able Bodied Men" Armed and equipped the same as the regular Military! You could even be fined for not having a certain amount of power and shot, or a musket in less then acceptable working order, nor the practice of use when challenged!
This has been skewed and twisted over these many years, but the Constitution was never amended to remove the Civilian Militia, rather to supplant it with the National Guard, ironically made up of mostly the same folks who would be the Militia!
Take that concept and apply it to today, and that is where WE SHOULD BE! It's why the Constitution contained that very specific language and included the precept that civilians would be armed and equipped at all times the same as the Military, in regular practice, and maintained at the minimum acceptable standards! Again, WHERE WE SHOULD BE!

 

[Doug1943]

That's my attitude as well.
250 years ago, I think you could be a rank-and-file soldier without an extensive course of training -- it was mainly drill, assuming you already knew how to use a musket. And except for American sniping, battles were fairly set-piece. Ranks of soldiers advancing on ranks of the enemy, perhaps behind some rudimentary cover, with one or two volleys and then a bayonet charge. But of course modern infantry warfare is infinitely different.

Even to be in the National Guard, you've got to give up a couple of months for BCT, and then there's more for AIT. And one weekend a month (is it still that way?) So while I would recommend every sensible -- I won't say 'conservative' -- young person sign up for the Guard, it's still quite a committment.

Now, some states have 'State Guards'. I don't know what this entails in the way of a committment. But ... suppose every state had such a thing, with the minimum possible time required for BCT. Basically, just a large pool of infantrymen. (and women!). (Let's not get into the women-in-combat argument. I think it's insane too but one thing at a time). I think that would go a long way towards re-establishing the original spirit of the militia. Such a State Guard could have access to some of the firepower that ordinary Americans can't legally, or easily, have. And it could have access to some of the technology and supporting personnel that you need -- comms, medical, intelligence, etc.

The advantage of a State Guard, as opposed to the National Guard, is that the latter are liable to overseas service. And while I think most Americans would be willing and more than willing to defend their country, from all enemies domestic and foreign -- note that 'domestic', how far-sighted someone was back then -- they may not be so keen to bring Lesbian Awareness to the warring tribes of Absurdistan. (I recall reading about something chalked on the back of a Humvee in Baghdad -- "One Weekend a Month My bubblegum!")

Also, a State Guard doubles pretty well as First or Second responders in a big disaster, which the North American continent seems to experience with some frequency. A lot of disaster relief is like fighting a battle -- you've got problems of transport, logistics, medical, communications ... so that having a substantial State Guard is a bonus.

I'm just thinking out loud here .. . I am a student of history and have been observing developments in the US over the last few years with increasing worry. I'm glad there are lots of individuals who are armed, and good luck to those folks with a cabin in the woods and six months supply of canned beans and toilet paper stored up, but that won't be of much use if the Bad Guys become the government and take over the cities and towns (worst case here).

The prize will go to the people who are both prepared and organized, not to individual heroes. The problem is, we Americans are individualists.

I would appreciate comments.

 

[RetiredArmy]

Thank you very much. Very practical information.
Given your professional background, | have another question.
I know I should do a websearch on this, and I will, but you may
have some useful pointers that I can't quickly find via Google.
If someone wanted to read two or three books or manuals
on small-unit tactics, where should he start? I'm talking about
simple stuff -- which may be obsolete now, since I encountered
these ideas fifty years ago. Things like how to walk your bullets
into the target, because even if they miss they make the other
guy duck, whereas rounds going overhead don't; how to make a
firing card for night use if you've got an automatic weapon on
a tripod; follow-my-tracer; fire and maneuver; radio discipline;
I would be especially interested in things written since Iraq,
i.e. urban warfare, not open ground warfare. I'll do a websearch
but I'd like the opinion of a pro. I would like to read the sort of
sort of thing a platoon leader would need to know, not just
the ordinary 11B10 fellow. And then maybe a level up... I
remember that the Army used to have Field Manuals, but I
don't know if these are accessible or even exist any more.
Thanks in advance!

Well look up the Red Army's Gorilla Manual it give good advice for non-standard units. with the training standards you are dealing with more advanced FM's are not going to help you much. The Gorilla Warfare stuff is more in line with your interests.