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Advice on Firearms wanted.

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Suppose a whole neighborhood -- say, a hundred people -- wanted to bulk-buy a weapon for neighborhood defense. (Not just individual home defense.)

Suppose they wanted to be ready for sustained defense against an attacking mob, which included well-armed individuals.

Now ... what would be the best weapon to bulk-purchase? Keeping in mind that a lot of these folks are not particularly interested
in weapons. You might get them to go to the firing range two or three times, or out into the desert for a practice session, but many
of them will not be gun enthusiasts. Not only that, some of them will be of slight build, not happy with heavy recoil, or really loud
discharges. You're not going to make them into marksmen.

From the point of view of overall utility in such a situation -- (and remember that money is a factor -- assume that each person will spend
up to 2000 dollars but no more).... what would be the best weapon to buy?

We're not talking about what YOU would want. It's not a question of which cartridge can penetrate cover at 750 meters, which weapon is
can be fitted with an exotic sight, etc. In other words, don't let the best be the enemy of the good.

We're talking about something a housewife can aim at some bad guys 250 meters away and get
off enough rounds to walk the bullets up into them, and then do a quick magazine change. And not
something that will be carried and used daily for 18 months in sustained combat. Not a sniper's weapon.

About fifty years ago I got to shoot several thousand rounds out of the M16, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
Recently I got to shoot my nephew's AR15. It seems to me that a cheap version of this weapon (I understand
that there are several variants, some better than others), plus a dozen magazines and a thousand rounds
of cheap Russian ammunition [and maybe a flak vest but that's another question] would be adequate for discouraging
a mob of reparation-seekers, if in the hands of a couple of dozen people being directed by someone who's been in
similar situations.

However, I don't know a lot about guns in general, or their availability in the US today (I live abroad).

So I'm asking advice from anyone who has an informed opinion. (I repeat -- not what YOU would own, but
what the Ladies' Bridge Club should own.)
 
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I have no idea if more than one person can own a single firearm in the UK. In the States, a firearm has to be owned by a single person unless the firearm (such as a Class III weapon) is owned by a Living Trust.

The AR platform is a good choice for a stand-off weapon. It's lightweight, disassembles quickly and easily for cleaning, has very little recoil, the collapsible stock allows for fitting to users of small stature, the ammo is widely available and to have one pointed at you can quickly encourage you to change your mind about going any farther into the private home into which you've just broken. The utility of the platform is just one of the many reasons fifteen million Americans own the rifle.
 
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I have no idea if more than one person can own a single firearm in the UK. In the States, a firearm has to be owned by a single person unless the firearm (such as a Class III weapon) is owned by a Living Trust.

The AR platform is a good choice for a stand-off weapon. It's lightweight, disassembles quickly and easily for cleaning, has very little recoil, the collapsible stock allows for fitting to users of small stature, the ammo is widely available and to have one pointed at you can quickly encourage you to change your mind about going any farther into the private home into which you've just broken. The utility of the platform is just one of the many reasons fifteen million Americans own the rifle.
If I were caught with an AR in the UK I'd go to prison, probably for several years. No, I'm thinking about the US.
Your post matches what I have read elsewhere and fits my own prejudices.
But perhaps others have some objections?
 
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Glock G17 or 19's
Mossberg 500's
Standard AR A-2's

Pickup bed full of ammo! :cool:
Why are any of these a better choice for the situation I have described? Remember, not the weapon a sophisticated gun-expert would own, but something the members of the Thusday Morning Ladies Bridge Club could own, and be able to use.

Also, I didn't mention it, but the cost of ammo is a factor. To get somebody comfortable with using the thing, you would want them to, over time, have fired a couple of hundred rounds out of it. So there has to be cheap ammo availabe -- if the price makes a real difference, then cheapo's for practice and more reliable expensive stuff for social use.
 
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If I were caught with an AR in the UK I'd go to prison, probably for several years.
Of what is the UK government afraid in you having a weapon? To me, it's the government telling me I'm not responsible; that I'm an inherent danger-- just because I have a black rifle chambered in a NATO cartridge. I'd be outraged with the government telling me I'm still a Kindergartener and because of what they believe, I cannot own a firearm of a certain color with certain attributes such as a bayonet lug or a collapsing stock. I'm a responsible adult. My parents raised me well and taught me more of real value than anything the government could ever teach me. I need the government's opinion only slightly less than I need erectile dysfunction...
 
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Why are any of these a better choice for the situation I have described? Remember, not the weapon a sophisticated gun-expert would own, but something the members of the Thusday Morning Ladies Bridge Club could own, and be able to use.

Also, I didn't mention it, but the cost of ammo is a factor. To get somebody comfortable with using the thing, you would want them to, over time, have fired a couple of hundred rounds out of it. So there has to be cheap ammo availabe -- if the price makes a real difference, then cheapo's for practice and more reliable expensive stuff for social use.
The Glock is as simple and reliable as they get, and 9 mm ammo is the standard world wide, so it's not only very cheap, its everywhere!
The Mossy 500 is the same deal, simple, robust and reliable, and .12 gauge is the world standard!
AR, nuff said, super cheap to shoot, zero recoil, and it's effective!

All are simple choices, no muss, no fuss, gets it done effectively, cheaply, and reliably!
Bonus is they are super easy to use, ever for folks that have never shot anything before, A few min spent on the basics and you can rely on getting what needs doing, Done!
 
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Of what is the UK government afraid in you having a weapon? To me, it's the government telling me I'm not responsible; that I'm an inherent danger-- just because I have a black rifle chambered in a NATO cartridge. I'd be outraged with the government telling me I'm still a Kindergartener and because of what they believe, I cannot own a firearm of a certain color with certain attributes such as a bayonet lug or a collapsing stock. I'm a responsible adult. My parents raised me well and taught me more of real value than anything the government could ever teach me. I need the government's opinion only slightly less than I need erectile dysfunction...
Just after WWI, there was great fear among the ruling elite in most European countries that their working classes would become Bolshevized, and reproduce the Russian Revolution in their own countries.

In England in the 19th Century you could go buy a revolver and carry it under your coat. No licence needed. You could buy any firearm you wanted. But in 1920 the government disarmed the working class via legislation -- I can find you the details if you want -- and now, only farmers and rich men who hunt find it easy to get licenses. Handguns and semi-autos are completely out of the question. Handguns were banned a couple of decades ago after a mass shooting.

There is almost no disagreement with this, on either Left or Right. I live in a pretty conservative area, and at a dinner party, I can bring conversation to an embarrassed halt by saying that I don't think Americans should trust their government to defend them in all circumstances. English culture is not American culture and I don't try to change their minds about what they should do here.
 
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The Glock is as simple and reliable as they get, and 9 mm ammo is the standard world wide, so it's not only very cheap, its everywhere!
The Mossy 500 is the same deal, simple, robust and reliable, and .12 gauge is the world standard!
AR, nuff said, super cheap to shoot, zero recoil, and it's effective!

All are simple choices, no muss, no fuss, gets it done effectively, cheaply, and reliably!
Bonus is they are super easy to use, ever for folks that have never shot anything before, A few min spent on the basics and you can rely on getting what needs doing, Done!
Thank you. But do you think that the AR15 -- if we had to choose only one weapon -- has any significant disadvantages? I'll take on board what you say about handguns and shotguns, but as a defensive weapon in the situation I mentioned, is it your judgement that it would be adequate? You mentioned something called AR A2s .. is that an AR15 variant?
 
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I carried an M-16/M-4 for a living for 20 years, and Yea, its a good weapon, especially for those not able to use a larger or more powerful weapon!
The beauty of the AR is that it's light weight, easy to use, and simple to operate, and allows a person to be able to carry large amounts of ammo with out being overwhelmed by the weight of it! As far as effectiveness, Not an issue in the civilian world with the proper selection of quality ammo unlike what we had in the military which was restrictive! Keep in mind, One 30 round magazine of 5.56 weighs exactly 1 Pound, vs One 20 round magazine of 7.62X51 weighs slightly more then a pound ( Depending on the weapon/mag combo, and bullet weight) so that makes a big difference in weight and carry ability!

I carry and use a much more powerful 7.62X51 FN/FAL semi auto rifle, ( again, highly experienced in it's use) and I can deal with the quantity of ammo trade off for the much greater range and hitting power! It's not for everyone, and that's why I always recommend the AR to new folks, or those how cannot use a larger/more powerful rifle!

Remember the #1 Rule of gun fighting, Always fight with a RIFLE, even if it means fighting your way to a RIFLE!
1565747421896.png
 
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I carry and use a much more powerful 7.62X51 FN/FAL semi auto rifle . . .
I've looked at the FAL rifle for thirty-some years, and I have to ask you about the angle of the grip on it. Look at the grip angle of the M-16 versus the grip angle of the FAL. Which is the more ergonomic, allows for faster handling and easier gripping when bad men are trying to kill you? To my ignorant eye, the FAL grip just looks to be overly-angled for fast and easy use. Please enlighten me...
 
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I get that question a lot, My answer is to look at the FAL compared to both the M-16 and the M-14 and see how the grip angle relates, and go from there!
I have never had issue with any thing part of the FAL, and keep in mind something really neat-o about the FAL, that every thing is located on the left side, making the rifle easy to operate while still shouldered! It also uses the well known Rock-n-Lock Mag catch, so it's really easy to get used to!
1565748670614.png
 
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You mentioned something called AR A2s .. is that an AR15 variant?
The A2 variant is the original configuration of the AR-type rifle sold around 1974 to civilians; it's the model with the fixed & solid buttstock, the forward-assist plunger, the birdcage muzzle device and the twenty-inch barrel in the government profile. The A1 model from around 1964 had the fixed carrying handle, no forward-assist, triangular handguards, fixed buttstock and three-prong muzzle device. The M4 is the carbine with collapsing stock, round handguards and sixteen-inch barrel. Because the platform is so flexible and because the aftermarket industry has created and marketed so many add-ons and accessories, a man can outfit his rifle with a dizzying assortment of just about whatever he so desires. Free-market capitalism and our Individual Liberty as Americans will sooner or later bring us still another thing we have to hang from America's favorite rifle, and that's a really good thing...
 
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The stock of the M-14 looks to me to have been modeled on that of the M1 Garand, a rifle with which so many men in the '40s and '50s were intimately familiar. Armalite brought forth the AR-15 in about 1958 or '59 as a civilian weapon. The thing had to look to the user of the day like something out of Buck Rogers. It had its sights well above the bore, a handle to carry it and the buttstock directly in-line with the bore. It was made of many parts other than wood and chambered in the new .223 Remington round. The military looked at it and saw that a soldier could carry a lot more .223 ammo for the AR than he could 7.62 x 51 ammo for the M-14.

I've heard Vietnam-era soldiers say the M-16 was a "Mattel toy." Maybe, but I'd sure as hellsinki not want to be hit by a bullet from one. The idea behind the .224-caliber round was not to kill the enemy, but to wound him. A wounded soldier requires four of his buddies to run out there and drag him to the rear. When five enemy soldiers are not shooting at you, you can gain some ground and maybe turn the tide of the battle. Hospitals full of wounded soldiers require capital resources of the enemy to be directed to their recovery instead of toward the campaign.
 
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The problem with the AR ( M-16) in the civilian world is entirely AMMO selection! Unlike the Mil where we continuously "Ice Picked" tangos, you DON'T want that as a civilian, so you need to be careful in choosing good ammo! Once you do, you now have a very effective stopper, even for in home HD use! I like the Hornady Varimators and COR-BON 55 gr HD rounds, and switch to a 62 or 77 gr softpoint for longer needs!
Out of a 11.5 inch SBR, this is a super slick and deadly combination!!
 
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I carried an M-16/M-4 for a living for 20 years, and Yea, its a good weapon, especially for those not able to use a larger or more powerful weapon!
The beauty of the AR is that it's light weight, easy to use, and simple to operate, and allows a person to be able to carry large amounts of ammo with out being overwhelmed by the weight of it! As far as effectiveness, Not an issue in the civilian world with the proper selection of quality ammo unlike what we had in the military which was restrictive! Keep in mind, One 30 round magazine of 5.56 weighs exactly 1 Pound, vs One 20 round magazine of 7.62X51 weighs slightly more then a pound ( Depending on the weapon/mag combo, and bullet weight) so that makes a big difference in weight and carry ability!

I carry and use a much more powerful 7.62X51 FN/FAL semi auto rifle, ( again, highly experienced in it's use) and I can deal with the quantity of ammo trade off for the much greater range and hitting power! It's not for everyone, and that's why I always recommend the AR to new folks, or those how cannot use a larger/more powerful rifle!

Remember the #1 Rule of gun fighting, Always fight with a RIFLE, even if it means fighting your way to a RIFLE!
View attachment 5291
Thanks very much! Just what I was looking for! Always ask an expert, or, as they used to advertise Packard Automobiles when I was a kid, "Ask the man who owns one."
 
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The problem with the AR ( M-16) in the civilian world is entirely AMMO selection! Unlike the Mil where we continuously "Ice Picked" tangos, you DON'T want that as a civilian, so you need to be careful in choosing good ammo! Once you do, you now have a very effective stopper, even for in home HD use! I like the Hornady Varimators and COR-BON 55 gr HD rounds, and switch to a 62 or 77 gr softpoint for longer needs!
Out of a 11.5 inch SBR, this is a super slick and deadly combination!!
Don't understand most of this, but I'll file it away.
I anticipate a situation where there is a wide range of talent: from the Ladies' Bridge Club who have never pulled a trigger in their lives, to vets of Iraq/Afghanistan who have pulled one hundreds of times, with the right division of labor -- the first providing quantity, the latter quality. And not just
in terms of shooting, but also of small-unit tactics. I've started to think about this because I've been following, for many years now, the increasingly-depressing
news from the land of my birth, and things seem to be speeding up.
 
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The A2 variant is the original configuration of the AR-type rifle sold around 1974 to civilians; it's the model with the fixed & solid buttstock, the forward-assist plunger, the birdcage muzzle device and the twenty-inch barrel in the government profile. The A1 model from around 1964 had the fixed carrying handle, no forward-assist, triangular handguards, fixed buttstock and three-prong muzzle device. The M4 is the carbine with collapsing stock, round handguards and sixteen-inch barrel. Because the platform is so flexible and because the aftermarket industry has created and marketed so many add-ons and accessories, a man can outfit his rifle with a dizzying assortment of just about whatever he so desires. Free-market capitalism and our Individual Liberty as Americans will sooner or later bring us still another thing we have to hang from America's favorite rifle, and that's a really good thing...
Thank you for this. I suspect that the Ladies' Bridge Club won't care about most of these things, but that a lot of men will.
Question: do all the variants of the AR have exchangeable magazines? (I assume any cartridge that can be fired from one, can be fired from all .. am I right?)
 
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A AR15 rifle or Carbine in 5.56 will take the same magazine....no matter the magazine's capacity or maker.
Of course some magazines are more reliable than others...I like the GI issue ones and the MagPul ones...
I also prefer the 20 and 30 round magazines with a slight preference for the 20 rounders...

I like the balance a 20 or 30 round magazine has in my AR15 Carbine.
Andy
 
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Thanks! I didn't even know there were 30-round magazines available.
In Vietnam, if you put all 20 rounds in your magazine, apparently, it sometimes wouldn't feed.
So you only put in 18. Or so I was told. Any truth to this?
 

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